Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

[Desert Snake]

Do you know who Ezra was ?

Tell us Rabbi.

Are we supposed to know?

 

[Avi1001]

Tell me, are atheists who maintain the Torah laws practicing Judaism?

Are they practicing Judaism in any manner of a correct way?

Except, disciple, I am not an atheist. I am a reform Jew (small r). And I only maintain the ethical and moral laws.

 

[Avi1001]

Thank you very much, Rabbio. Indeed, I am very much drawn to Jewish Humanism. However, as you indicated, I consider myself a theist, a reform Jew (small r). This is because I consider reform Judaism to be a non-linear combination of: Humanistic Judaism, Jewish Agnosticism, Jewish Renewal, Jewish Reconstructionism and Classic Reform Judaism (capital R).

I believe in a syncretic approach, which combines my favorite elements of the various reform movements (small r).

For example, in Reconstructionism, my favorite topics are: Chosenness, miracles and Judaism as a Civilization.

In Classic Reform, I like the German Enlightenment version, which was very rebellious, with Sunday services, organ music, design of the Temple to resemble a Church. And the treif banquet.

In Renewal, I like the Interfaith piece.

Can you and Levite give some other examples of how reform sticks it to tradition?

It might be Avi that you might find yourself most at home with the Humanistic Judaism movement. Now, as you have identified yourself as a theist you might have to engage in a little "don't ask - don't tell" policy in that the movement discourages the use of the "G" word, but otherwise I think you would find it much to your liking.

 

[Desert Snake]

Except, disciple, I am not an atheist. I am a reform Jew (small r). And I only maintain the ethical and moral laws.

O.k. I wasn't inferring that you were an atheist.

 

[paarsurrey]

you are my new Muslim friend

You are my Jewish friend.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

1. Do you agree that ethics and morality are the most important part of religion?

2. Are any of your best friends Jews ?

3. Also, I have some healthy doubts about these "revealed books".

4. Are you an Ahmadi Atheist, Ahmadi Agnostic or other form of Ahmadian ?

1. Yes; ethics, morality and spiritual advancement are the most important part of religion.
2. No; no Jews live in my vicinity; hence so far none of the Jews is my best friend. I love everybody and hate no-one.
3. The doubts could be removed by civil discussion.
4. I am definitely not an Atheist; their ideology is totally wrong and without any reasonable basis.

I am an Ahmadi Muslim; being peaceful, moderate and reformed is always an essential part of religion.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

Hi again, Paar, as I mentioned in my previous post, we recently discussed Kabbalah and homosexuality. Before that we discussed circumcision. By all means, please give us your thoughts on any or all of these topics.

My humble submission is that core teachings of Judaism being belief in One-True-God and believing the true prophets.

None of the issues mentioned in the above quote is the core teachings of Judaism or Moses or Abraham. These are sub-tenets and must be understood under the core teachings of religion.

Establishing personal relationship with the One-True-God, therefore, must be the primary objective of a believer or a Jew.

If one cannot establish this relationship with doing a thing; one should not indulge in such a thing; at least one should not insist on doing it.

Of the three issues mentioned in the above quote a believer or a Jew should do circumcision only; as the prophets who established personal relationship with God have been doing it.

Symbolically circumcision means that one would focus on one’s ethical, moral and spiritual development and would strive in this direction; would prefer religion over worldly or material affairs.

Nevertheless one should remain focused on the core teachings.

Thanks and regards.

 

[Flankerl]

Be nice, Flankie, CJ's (Conservative) have to be polite.

When have i ever identified as a Conservative Jew? Iam actually part of an Orthodox Community.

Believe it or not Avi but you can actually be Orthodox about some things while being Conservative or Liberal about others.

None of the issues mentioned in the above quote is the core teachings of Judaism or Moses or Abraham. These are sub-tenets and must be understood under the core teachings of religion..

"Let me tell you about your Religion..."

 

[Avi1001]

, you are an OJ?

Can you please list the issues you are liberal on?

When have i ever identified as a Conservative Jew? Iam actually part of an Orthodox Community.

Believe it or not Avi but you can actually be Orthodox about some things while being Conservative or Liberal about others.

 

[metis]

I don't know how you reach that conclusion, since the Covenant was given by G-d, we don't even have to get into various Torah laws which predicate value upon ones belief in G-d.

But, if that is Rabbinical Judaic opinion, then so be it.

Let me deal with this.

Judaism puts far more emphasis on moral behavior than politically-correct beliefs, although I'm not going so far as to say or imply that beliefs are meaningless. What is most important in Judaism is the following of the Law itself, even if we do have doubts about there even being a God.

Now with that being said, I think an agnostic Jew is probably standing on firmer ground than one whom absolutely believes there is no God. However, even with the latter, Torah puts so much emphasis on following the Law that it begs the question what does God actually feel about an atheist in terms of judgement? I can't be sure, so I'll ask Him after I croak, but getting the message to you if I go first could be a bit of a problem.

 

[Avi1001]

I agree with most of what Metis says here, but will narrow it further by saying it is more logical to focus on the laws that have ethical and moral significance.

Why should we, as Jews, follow laws that have no logical meaning ? Why shouldn't women be rabbi's ? Why shouldn't we be allowed to drive a car to Temple on Saturday? Why can't we eat a cheeseburger? Why shouldn't we be allowed to get tattoos? Why should we get circumcised? Who would be damaged by these acts?

Let me deal with this.

Judaism puts far more emphasis on moral behavior than politically-correct beliefs, although I'm not going so far as to say or imply that beliefs are meaningless. What is most important in Judaism is the following of the Law itself, even if we do have doubts about there even being a God.

Now with that being said, I think an agnostic Jew is probably standing on firmer ground than one whom absolutely believes there is no God. However, even with the latter, Torah puts so much emphasis on following the Law that it begs the question what does God actually feel about an atheist in terms of judgement? I can't be sure, so I'll ask Him after I croak, but getting the message to you if I go first could be a bit of a problem.

 

[dantech]

Why should we, as Jews, follow laws that have no logical meaning ? Why shouldn't women be rabbi's ? Why shouldn't we be allowed to drive a car to Temple on Saturday? Why can't we eat a cheeseburger? Why shouldn't we be allowed to get tattoos? Why should we get circumcised? Who would be damaged by these acts?

You are a Theist. Is this Diety you believe in superior to us? Is it possible that our logic is finite, and not capable of understanding each and every little thing?

Also, earlier you were talking about our core teachings in Judaism. Perhaps now would be a good time to bring up נַעֲשֶׂ֥ה וְנִשְׁמָֽע?

 

[Flankerl]

, you are an OJ?

Can you please list the issues you are liberal on?

Why should i be an OJ?


I could but the nice weather outside seems to be more fulfilling.

 

[RabbiO]

Also, earlier you were talking about our core teachings in Judaism. Perhaps now would be a good time to bring up נַעֲשֶׂ֥ה וְנִשְׁמָֽע?

Quoting Torah, specifically Shemot isn't going to carry any weight, with Avi.

But you knew that.

 

[Avi1001]

Quoting Torah, specifically Shemot isn't going to carry any weight, with Avi.

But you knew that.

Not exactly true, Rabbio. If the quote is logical, it carries weight with me.

Moses' Ten Commandments are pretty convincing.

 

[RabbiO]

Not exactly true, Rabbio. If the quote is logical, it carries weight with me.

Moses' Ten Commandments are pretty convincing.

But in regard to the particular reference Dan made, it is true. I direct you to Exocus 24:1-7.

The words quoted by Dan are the last two words in verse 7.

 

[RabbiO]

Why should we, as Jews, follow laws that have no logical meaning?

Perhaps you're asking the wrong question or only asking one of the questions you should be asking.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I can envision a day when circumcision is assessed for its medical value. It could even be continued in another, less drastic form, perhaps as a "ritual circumcision".

It certainly doesn't create commitment in me. To me its just something I don't even remember. To my parents it was something the doctor recommended, so they had it done. Probably it cost them an extra 20$. To a Jewish parent though it probably takes on some meaning.

I have thought about the symbolic value for Jews but never really asked. The thing I notice, at this moment, is that the alternative to circumcising on the 8th day is circumcising much later. Circumcision at bar-mitzvoh would truly test the commitment of the individual! Unfortunately that would also symbolically represent that there was no advantage in having Jewish parents, in terms of learning humility and morality. (I think.)

Bottom line is that because circumcision is widespread it has no value of distinguishing you from others, so you only need to consider the symbolic value and any supposed medical value. You have to ask yourself how much you value symbolism. If you think your kids have a spiritual advantage due to giving them a proper upbringing, then I'd say it is not a huge wrong to circumcise the boys, particularly when you compare it to the pain of growing up. If you are a very hands-off and uncaring parent then it would not be appropriate as your kids would just be the wild result of too much television and parasites in their bare feet. You'd really have no business claiming to have shaped their lives in any way.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Thanks for giving it a shot. To me the quote :"Tradition gets a vote, but not a veto"...means there are times we stick to the ideas and principles of the past....and other times, when we need to reject them. The key is knowing which time is which.

I think similarly but am not Jewish at all and my awareness of tradition is fledgling. The way that you are reared as a child definitely shapes you as an adult, and there are both benefits and costs to every decision a parent makes. If they teach children not to lie the children will be disadvantaged on one way and advantaged in another. The parent makes the best guess they can using the invisible parenting book that all babies come with. So the key to knowing what is logical is often that making a guess is the most logical choice.

 

[Desert Snake]

Let me deal with this.

Judaism puts far more emphasis on moral behavior than politically-correct beliefs, although I'm not going so far as to say or imply that beliefs are meaningless. What is most important in Judaism is the following of the Law itself, even if we do have doubts about there even being a God.

I understand this. But there are, for instance, two different answers to the question if you asked me if I were "Christian", for instance. One answer is, yes, in that I celebrate the holidays, follow Xian customs etc. The 'other' answer, is that no, since I've never really understood Xianity, I'm not really a Xian in the usual sense of the word. Both are true, and it makes little difference what any church would say about this.

that being said, I understood your answer.