Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

[metis]

I understand this. But there are, for instance, two different answers to the question if you asked me if I were "Christian", for instance. One answer is, yes, in that I celebrate the holidays, follow Xian customs etc. The 'other' answer, is that no, since I've never really understood Xianity, I'm not really a Xian in the usual sense of the word. Both are true, and it makes little difference what any church would say about this.

that being said, I understood your answer.

Good.

However, there's another option, which could go like this: "I have studied Christianity and have long tried to understand if there's a God, but I'm not certain there is. However, I feel a need to live a life of Christian morality because I do believe moral living is important even with my doubts".

Agreed?

 

[paarsurrey]

Let me deal with this.

Judaism puts far more emphasis on moral behavior than politically-correct beliefs, although I'm not going so far as to say or imply that beliefs are meaningless. What is most important in Judaism is the following of the Law itself, even if we do have doubts about there even being a God.

Now with that being said, I think an agnostic Jew is probably standing on firmer ground than one whom absolutely believes there is no God. However, even with the latter, Torah puts so much emphasis on following the Law that it begs the question what does God actually feel about an atheist in terms of judgement? I can't be sure, so I'll ask Him after I croak, but getting the message to you if I go first could be a bit of a problem.

'A Jew remains a Jews even if one does not believe in God' is a wrong notion;it smells like a racial approach in religion. If one does not believe in the One-True-God; one is neither a believer nor virtually a Jew.

One who has left belief in the One-True-God; he has left the most important and the most core belief told by Moses; with a non-belief in God; he has already denied spiritual status of Abraham and Moses and virtually stands cut-off from the lineage of Abraham and Moses who were staunch believers in the existence and Oneness of God .

Regards

 

[Desert Snake]

Good.

However, there's another option, which could go like this: "I have studied Christianity and have long tried to understand if there's a God, but I'm not certain there is. However, I feel a need to live a life of Christian morality because I do believe moral living is important even with my doubts".

Agreed?

Personally I do believe in G-d, but yes, that answer seems valid.

 

[metis]

'A Jew remains a Jews even if one does not believe in God' is a wrong notion;it smells like a racial approach in religion. If one does not believe in the One-True-God; one is neither a believer nor virtually a Jew.

One who has left belief in the One-True-God; he has left the most important and the most core belief told by Moses; with a non-belief in God; he has already denied spiritual status of Abraham and Moses and virtually stands cut-off from the lineage of Abraham and Moses who were staunch believers in the existence and Oneness of God .

Regards

I think we Jews can set our own standards, and what I wrote in no way is a "racial approach".

 

[Desert Snake]

..........opcorn:



Good thread Avi! Very interesting!

 

[paarsurrey]

What is most important in Judaism is the following of the Law itself, even if we do have doubts about there even being a God.

The prime teaching of Moses

4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.
5. And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your means.
6. And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.
7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes.
9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 6 (Parshah Va'etchanan) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

This is the essence of all commandments and the Law of Moses;one who does not follow this teaching; does not in effect follow any Law described by Moses.

Thanks and regards

 

[RabbiO]

'A Jew remains a Jews even if one does not believe in God' is a wrong notion;it smells like a racial approach in religion. If one does not believe in the One-True-God; one is neither a believer nor virtually a Jew.

One who has left belief in the One-True-God; he has left the most important and the most core belief told by Moses; with a non-belief in God; he has already denied spiritual status of Abraham and Moses and virtually stands cut-off from the lineage of Abraham and Moses who were staunch believers in the existence and Oneness of God .

You go to all the trouble to, more than once, denigrate Jewish scripture as the corrupted product of sinful scribes and then you want to quote it to us?

Let me be blunt. Neither you nor any other Muslim, nor any other non-Jew gets to decide who is a Jew or what it means to be Jewish. Actually, neither you nor any other Muslim, nor any other non-Jew gets to decide anything in regard to Judaism.

There is no other word to describe your posts other than arrogant.

 

[Avi1001]

Rabbio, it appears there is some sort of misunderstanding here. Paar said he is my friend, so he would not knowingly insult Judaism.

Right Paar ?

Also, would you mind telling us a little about yourself, Paar? Your educational level, did you go to an Islamic Madrassa? What is your field of work? Your age ? Sexual orientation? I just want to gauge your readiness for interfaith dialogue.

Btw, disciple failed this pre-screening, but he is slowly coming up to speed .

You go to all the trouble to, more than once, denigrate Jewish scripture as the corrupted product of sinful scribes and then you want to quote it to us?

Let me be blunt. Neither you nor any other Muslim, nor any other non-Jew gets to decide who is a Jew or what it means to be Jewish. Actually, neither you nor any other Muslim, nor any other non-Jew gets to decide anything in regard to Judaism.

There is no other word to describe your posts other than arrogant.

 

[Avi1001]

You are a Theist. Is this Diety you believe in superior to us? Is it possible that our logic is finite, and not capable of understanding each and every little thing?

Also, earlier you were talking about our core teachings in Judaism. Perhaps now would be a good time to bring up נַעֲשֶׂ֥ה וְנִשְׁמָֽע?

You are going for a G-d of the gaps approach. It doesn't cut it.

 

[Avi1001]

But in regard to the particular reference Dan made, it is true. I direct you to Exocus 24:1-7.

The words quoted by Dan are the last two words in verse 7.

You are right, Rabbio. I am not a literalist when it comes to Torah.

 

[Avi1001]

Perhaps you're asking the wrong question or only asking one of the questions you should be asking.

This comment is too cryptic. We cannot read your mind.

 

[Avi1001]

There is a great book called: "Who Wrote the Bible?", by Richard Elliot Friedman. He gives an excellent description of how the Torah evolved. There were a number of authors. They are designated: J(Yahweh/Jehovah), E (Elohim), P(Priestly), D(Deuteronomy) and R(Redactor). It's a long story. The Documentary Hypothesis, developed by a German, Julius Wellhausen, was a nasty approach. The Germans were anti-Semites long before Nazism.

Ezra is the most notable of the authors. Moses did not write the Five Books of Moses.

There are lots of interesting issues. We can debate them, if you would like to do so.

Rabbio or Levite, can you please explain this to Dan in more detail?

.....Also, do you believe Ezra wrote the Torah from scratch? Is he the author? That's how you're making it seem...

 

[paarsurrey]

Rabbio, it appears there is some sort of misunderstanding here. Paar said he is my friend, so he would not knowingly insult Judaism.

Right Paar ?

I insult nobody; I express what I sincerely believe. I have read Bible from cover to cover.
I have not studied in any Religious Madressah.
I am giving arguments and quoting from a Jewish Bible to support my reasoning; so there should not be any cause of complaint.
Reason should be countered with reason.
I like inter-faith discussion. I support and defend all religions; as all religions were originally truthful with the passage of time they got corrupted by the clergy; sometimes tampering with the texts revealed and sometimes stressing the points that were not in the core teachings and or were against the prime teachings.
Jewish scripture is a mixed up thing; there is a part which conforms with the original while there is other which has been added .
The One-True-God is All-wise so His Word must contain the reason part not just the commandments. Bible misses the reason part; and that is the doing of the clergy.

Regards

 

[Avi1001]

I like your approach, my new friend, Paar. It is sort of rebellious and in your face. No wonder the clergy hate you.

So are you saying the Quran is right, because it is not mixed up.....by the clergy, but the Torah is wrong?

Also, are the Arab countries, like the one you are in, run by the Islamic clergy?

Also, is the Islamic clergy compassionate and kind, like the Jewish clergy, or power hungry and aggressive?

What sort of things do you do in your spare time, fly fishing? Recruit for the Mosque, etc.?

Don't you agree, an Islamic reform movement and Islamic atheism might offer some potential advantages? For example if we study the origin of the universe, isn't that approach better than the traditional Quranic dogma ? Can you cite the main dogma of the Quran?

By the way, thanks for providing all the Torah quotes, but it is unnecessary, we have our own copies. And what version of Torah are you using, is it from your local Madrassa?

You haven't told us what you do? Do you have a secular job or you work for the Mosque?

I insult nobody; I express what I sincerely believe. I have read Bible from cover to cover.
I have not studied in any Religious Madressah.
I am giving arguments and quoting from a Jewish Bible to support my reasoning; so there should not be any cause of complaint.
Reason should be countered with reason.
I like inter-faith discussion. I support and defend all religions; as all religions were originally truthful with the passage of time they got corrupted by the clergy; sometimes tampering with the texts revealed and sometimes stressing the points that were not in the core teachings and or were against the prime teachings.
Jewish scripture is a mixed up thing; there is a part which conforms with the original while there is other which has been added .
The One-True-God is All-wise so His Word must contain the reason part not just the commandments. Bible misses the reason part; and that is the doing of the clergy.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

What does the one true G-d mean ?

More about the One-True-God:

“Our God is that God Who is alive even now as He was alive before. He speaks even now as He used to speak before. And even now He hears as He heard before. It is a false notion that in these times He only hears but does not speak. On the contrary, He hears and also speaks. All His Attributes are eternal and everlasting.None of His Attributes is in abeyance, nor will it ever be.

He alone is the One without any associate; He has no son, nor has He any wife. He alone is Peerless and there is no one like Him. And He is the One Who is unique in that none of His Attributes are exclusively possessed by anyone beside Him. He has no equal. He does not share His attributes with anyone. None of His powers is less than perfect. He is near, yet far and He is far, yet near.

He has no body, nor any shape. He is above all, but it cannot be said that there is anything beneath Him. He is on ‘Arsh (heaven or sky), but it can't be said that He is not on the earth. He is the sum total of all Perfect Attributes and He is the Manifestation of every True Praise. He is the source of all that is Good and encompasses all Powers and He is the source of all forms of Beneficence.

He is the One to Whom everything returns. He is the Lord of all the realms. He possesses every Perfection and is free from all defects, imperfections and weakness. It is His sole prerogative that all those who belong to the earth as well as all those who belong to the heavens should worship Him.

Nothing is impossible for Him. All souls and their potentialities and all particles and their potentials are His and only His creation. Nothing comes into existence without Him. He reveals Himself through His Powers, His Omnipotence and His Signs. We can attain Him only through Him.

He always reveals His Being to the righteous and shows them His Omnipotence—and this is the only means by which He is recognized and the path He favours is recognized.

He sees without physical eyes and hears without physical ears and speaks without a physical tongue.

Likewise it is His work to bring a thing into existence from nothingness. For example, in dreams you see how He creates a whole world without matter and shows you every mortal and nonexistent being as having existence. Thus are all His Powers.

Ignorant is he who denies His Powers. Blind is he who has no knowledge of His profound and inconceivable Powers. He can, and does everything that He intends to, except those which are at variance with His Glory or which are in conflict with His Promises. He is unique in His Being, in His Attributes, in His Actions and in His Powers.”

Regards

 

[Avi1001]

This is not looking good for our new, interfaith friendship, Paar.

If you have the intelligence to write your own thoughts, please do so.

If not, please do not just cut and paste the gobbely-gook. We have all seen it before. Also, if you do cut and paste, please provide the reference link, otherwise you are plagerizing. That is against the rules and you will be reported.

Also, we all know what one G-d means, just read the Ten Commandments, dude.

I gave you some questions to respond to. Lets start there.

 

[Flankerl]

Rabbio, it appears there is some sort of misunderstanding here. Paar said he is my friend, so he would not knowingly insult Judaism.

Right Paar ?

Okay thats just funny.

 

[Avi1001]

Can either the Torah or Kabbalah be used to give us insight about the creation of the universe ?

At first thought, this seems logically impossible. As the Torah was wriiten during the time of Ezra, approx. 460 B.C.E. and the Kabbalah around Second Century C.E. there is really no way that either of these documents has sufficient science available to comment on this highly technical issue.

On second thought, religious fundamentalists will try to argue that these sacred texts relate to creation, but the arguments be weak, at best.

Btw, it is more than naive for fundys to say the age of the universe is 6,000 years old when we know it is nearly 14 billion. It is more like stubborn intransigence. Also, if the fundys are so far off on this simple logic, how can we trust their logic on more complex issues, such as "how was the universe created"?

 

[metis]

The prime teaching of Moses

4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.
5. And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your means.
6. And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.
7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes.
9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 6 (Parshah Va'etchanan) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

This is the essence of all commandments and the Law of Moses;one who does not follow this teaching; does not in effect follow any Law described by Moses.

Thanks and regards

What you fail to recognize is that there can be and are differences of opinions in Judaism in regards to just how objectively accurate Torah is, along with the fact that not only is questioning normal, it's expected.

 

[metis]

More about the One-True-God:

“Our God is that God Who is alive even now as He was alive before. He speaks even now as He used to speak before. And even now He hears as He heard before. It is a false notion that in these times He only hears but does not speak. On the contrary, He hears and also speaks. All His Attributes are eternal and everlasting.None of His Attributes is in abeyance, nor will it ever be.

He alone is the One without any associate; He has no son, nor has He any wife. He alone is Peerless and there is no one like Him. And He is the One Who is unique in that none of His Attributes are exclusively possessed by anyone beside Him. He has no equal. He does not share His attributes with anyone. None of His powers is less than perfect. He is near, yet far and He is far, yet near.

He has no body, nor any shape. He is above all, but it cannot be said that there is anything beneath Him. He is on ‘Arsh (heaven or sky), but it can't be said that He is not on the earth. He is the sum total of all Perfect Attributes and He is the Manifestation of every True Praise. He is the source of all that is Good and encompasses all Powers and He is the source of all forms of Beneficence.

He is the One to Whom everything returns. He is the Lord of all the realms. He possesses every Perfection and is free from all defects, imperfections and weakness. It is His sole prerogative that all those who belong to the earth as well as all those who belong to the heavens should worship Him.

Nothing is impossible for Him. All souls and their potentialities and all particles and their potentials are His and only His creation. Nothing comes into existence without Him. He reveals Himself through His Powers, His Omnipotence and His Signs. We can attain Him only through Him.

He always reveals His Being to the righteous and shows them His Omnipotence—and this is the only means by which He is recognized and the path He favours is recognized.

He sees without physical eyes and hears without physical ears and speaks without a physical tongue.

Likewise it is His work to bring a thing into existence from nothingness. For example, in dreams you see how He creates a whole world without matter and shows you every mortal and nonexistent being as having existence. Thus are all His Powers.

Ignorant is he who denies His Powers. Blind is he who has no knowledge of His profound and inconceivable Powers. He can, and does everything that He intends to, except those which are at variance with His Glory or which are in conflict with His Promises. He is unique in His Being, in His Attributes, in His Actions and in His Powers.”

Regards

Science, through the use of evidence, cannot even establish as to whether there's a God or not, and yet you feel that you can list all these descriptors about God. Where exactly did your information come from, and how can you tell that it is in any way accurate? Is your source accurate, and how can you supposedly tell that it is?

Let me put you through a test on this: how do you know with any certainty that there's only one God, and which scientific or other objective source can you derive this from?