Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

[paarsurrey]

Science, through the use of evidence, cannot even establish as to whether there's a God or not, and yet you feel that you can list all these descriptors about God. Where exactly did your information come from, and how can you tell that it is in any way accurate? Is your source accurate, and how can you supposedly tell that it is?

Let me put you through a test on this: how do you know with any certainty that there's only one God, and which scientific or other objective source can you derive this from?

A little questions to my Jewish friends.

Is the passage not in line with the prime teaching of Moses given below?:

4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.
5. And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your means.
6. And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.
7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes.
9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 6 (Parshah Va'etchanan) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Where did Moses get this teachings from?

Regards

 

[metis]

A little questions to my Jewish friends.

Is the passage not in line with the prime teaching of Moses given below:

4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.
5. And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your means.
6. And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.
7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes.
9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 6 (Parshah Va'etchanan) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Where did Moses get this teachings from?

Regards

Please deal with my questions first.

 

[Avi1001]

This is better, Paar, at least we see you are not a bot.

First of all you are assuming Moses is the one who wrote the Torah - lines and verse that you quoted. Please see my earlier post about "Who Wrote the Bible". It was most likely not Moses.

So you can ask the question, "Where did the authors of the Torah get the teaching from" ? They were teachers and "prophets", so they got it from where other teachers get their content, they got it from their brain.

We reform Jews believe that Torah was "G-d inspired". Do you buy in ? If so we can continue the debate. Btw, Paar, Metis and I are the two flaming reformers here, so you have both of us, now, trying to help you with your faulty logic.

A little questions to my Jewish friends.

Is the passage not in line with the prime teaching of Moses given below:

4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.
5. And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your means.
6. And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.
7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes.
9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 6 (Parshah Va'etchanan) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Where did Moses get this teachings from?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Ezra is the most notable of the authors. Moses did not write the Five Books of Moses.

I think your post did not answer the question raised by dantech:

Do you believe Ezra wrote the Torah from scratch?

Please answer the following little questions for clarity.

Moses got the Word of revelation from G-d; did he?
It was not authored by Moses but by G-d; did G-d author it?
It was not a brain-child of Moses; was it?
Who committed this Revelation to writing? Was it done by Moses?
What was the role of Ezra in this context?

Anybody Jewish or otherwise; please answer.

Regards

 

[Avi1001]

Look it, Paar, I am realizing pretty quickly, it is less a problem of religion A vs. B, etc., rather the difficulty comes between fundys vs. the reformers. Being an Ahmadi Muslim seems to put square in the middle of the fundys, but since you are my new friend, it makes you cool.

Let me try again with you. Moses was inspired by G-d, and he wrote the Ten Commandments. The Torah was written by a group of letters, with Ezra being the only one anyone heard of.

Islam needs a reformation, pronto.

Any other questions ?

I think your post did not answer the question raised by dantech:

Please answer the following little questions for clarity.

Moses got the Word of revelation from G-d; did he?
It was not authored by Moses but by G-d; did G-d author it?
It was not a brain-child of Moses; was it?
Who committed this Revelation to writing? Was it done by Moses?
What was the role of Ezra in this context?

Anybody Jewish or otherwise; please answer.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

1. Can either the Torah or Kabbalah be used to give us insight about the creation of the universe?

At first thought, this seems logically impossible. As the Torah was wriiten during the time of Ezra, approx. 460 B.C.E. and the Kabbalah around Second Century C.E. there is really no way that either of these documents has sufficient science available to comment on this highly technical issue.

On second thought, religious fundamentalists will try to argue that these sacred texts relate to creation, but the arguments be weak, at best.

2. Btw, it is more than naive for fundys to say the age of the universe is 6,000 years old when we know it is nearly 14 billion. It is more like stubborn intransigence. Also, if the fundys are so far off on this simple logic, how can we trust their logic on more complex issues, such as "how was the universe created"?

Your first issue

Word of Revelation is not primarily intended for scientific development; it is for ethical, moral and spiritual progress of the human beings. Only issues aligned with the prime teachings of Moses (or Religion) are supposed to be addressed by Torah etc.

Your second issue

Fundys try wrongly to infer age of Universe from Genesis. I agree it is nearly 14 billion years old.

Religion is concerned with the stage man got prepared or was able (in man’s evolution) to receive G-d’s Converse for guidance.

Bible cannot answer these questions; as Bible has lost the reason part due to the doing of the narrators and the scribes.

Men have to spoon feed Bible the missing reason part.

Regards

 

[Avi1001]

Lets come back to creation of the universe. A more interesting question than how old is the universe, is how was the universe created ?

I assert that it was created by a self assembly process. It may have been started by mass transport from another universe. That would make sense too. But in no way do we need reference to G-d as any relation to creation of the universe.

Quote=Avi

Can either the Torah or Kabbalah be used to give us insight about the creation of the universe ?

At first thought, this seems logically impossible. As the Torah was wriiten during the time of Ezra, approx. 460 B.C.E. and the Kabbalah around Second Century C.E. there is really no way that either of these documents has sufficient science available to comment on this highly technical issue.

On second thought, religious fundamentalists will try to argue that these sacred texts relate to creation, but the arguments be weak, at best.

Btw, it is more than naive for fundys to say the age of the universe is 6,000 years old when we know it is nearly 14 billion. It is more like stubborn intransigence. Also, if the fundys are so far off on this simple logic, how can we trust their logic on more complex issues, such as "how was the universe created"?

 

[paarsurrey]

What you fail to recognize is that there can be and are differences of opinions in Judaism in regards to just how objectively accurate Torah is, along with the fact that not only is questioning normal, it's expected.

Differences did start right from the time of Moses; when the Jews, in absence of Moses; carved the Golden Calf.

Torah only had commandment without providing the wisdom behind the commandments; it did not contain any reason content. It had claims without reasons.

It is the Jews or the rabbis who try to provide reason content to it; and sometimes or often they fail to do so; as the context of the text does not support it.

Absence of reason/wisdom/argument from the text is the doing of the scribes.
Right?

Questioning is OK; but the replies should be from the Jewish scriptures.
Right?

just how objectively accurate Torah is

Maybe we collectively could solve this riddle.

Regards

 

[Brickjectivity]

Lets come back to creation of the universe. A more interesting question than how old is the universe, is how was the universe created ?

Good question! A little scientific training allows us to know that by geometric measurements of the stars recorded at multiple moments in time and by studying the spectrum of light from each star we can determine many things about them such as their distance from us, their composition, and that they are all traveling away from us as if the universe is expanding. From that we can estimate that the universe is probably billions of our years in age. The age of the Earth can be estimated using the decay rates of elements that slowly decay from one element into another. It is thought that the Earth is at least 4 billion of our years in age.

We do not know how the mass of the universe came into existence or if it came into existence. We cannot verify that it exists to anyone but ourselves, but by our observations we know that it is a huge consistent system of forces, energy and matter that follow strict physical laws. It appears that the heavy elements on Earth were made in the furnace of supernovas and that our carbon based life is cruft from stars.

 

[Avi1001]

Very good, Brickj, your observations underscore that there is no need to involve a deity, G-d, in the creation of the universe.

This realization will have a major impact on future generations of theists. Have you begun to consider what some of these impacts will be ?

Good question! A little scientific training allows us to know that by geometric measurements of the stars recorded at multiple moments in time and by studying the spectrum of light from each star we can determine many things about them such as their distance from us, their composition, and that they are all traveling away from us as if the universe is expanding. From that we can estimate that the universe is probably billions of our years in age. The age of the Earth can be estimated using the decay rates of elements that slowly decay from one element into another. It is thought that the Earth is at least 4 billion of our years in age.

We do not know how the mass of the universe came into existence or if it came into existence. We cannot verify that it exists to anyone but ourselves, but by our observations we know that it is a huge consistent system of forces, energy and matter that follow strict physical laws. It appears that the heavy elements on Earth were made in the furnace of supernovas and that our carbon based life is cruft from stars.

 

[Brickjectivity]

This realization will have a major impact on future generations of theists. Have you begun to consider what some of these impacts will be ?

Certainly I have. If you'll consider my background it changes the original role God has in my life as explained to me. The way things are and the existence of things is no longer a miraculous and incomprehensible choice by a being. For example the fact that I am a white man is no longer the choice of a being but is due to my ancestry. When I get sick it doesn't mean that someone up there is angry or doesn't like me as much as healthy people. At the same time it puts me into the position have having to wonder where God intersects with my own existence. What does God have to do with me? If there is a God, does God 'See' me? All kinds of things are affected.

 

[paarsurrey]

Lets come back to creation of the universe. A more interesting question than how old is the universe, is how was the universe created ?

I assert that it was created by a self assembly process. It may have been started by mass transport from another universe. That would make sense too. But in no way do we need reference to G-d as any relation to creation of the universe.

It is a question for science to answer.
Why discuss it from the angle of science in a religious debate; I think its proper place is in the religion and science section.
Religion discussed the purpose of creation of universe and life in it. science only discusses the material and physical aspect of it; religion discusses the ethical, moral and spiritual aspects.

Regards

 

[metis]

Differences did start right from the time of Moses; when the Jews, in absence of Moses; carved the Golden Calf.

Torah only had commandment without providing the wisdom behind the commandments; it did not contain any reason content. It had claims without reasons.

False. Torah states that we shall not make and worship a graven image, and the reason for that is very clear as also found in Torah because making these images would be idolatry.

It is the Jews or the rabbis who try to provide reason content to it; and sometimes or often they fail to do so; as the context of the text does not support it.

Absence of reason/wisdom/argument from the text is the doing of the scribes.
Right?

Wrong. What they did was to try and make connections with one part of Torah with another. IOW, to deal with Torah as a whole for the purposes of context. Since we did not adopt a creed that all must follow, different sages often had different takes on certain narratives, which were retained so that other Jews could read and interpret for themselves.

Questioning is OK; but the replies should be from the Jewish scriptures.
Right?...
Maybe we collectively could solve this riddle.

Why should the replies only be from scripture? That makes no sense. Are we to ignore historical accounts from other sources? our own experiences? science? basic logic?

 

[metis]

It is a question for science to answer.
Why discuss it from the angle of science in a religious debate; I think its proper place is in the religion and science section.
Religion discussed the purpose of creation of universe and life in it. science only discusses the material and physical aspect of it; religion discusses the ethical, moral and spiritual aspects.

Regards

Because there are areas whereas science and religion overlap. If we deal with "creation", for example, both chime in on that subject.

 

[RabbiO]

Why would you have thought that you being white and/or a male was a choice that G-d made?

Why would you have thought that if you got sick or you stubbed your toe it was because G-d was angry with you?

Just askin'.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Why would you have thought that you being white and/or a male was a choice that G-d made?

Why would you have thought that if you got sick or you stubbed your toe it was because G-d was angry with you?

Just askin'.

I'm giving you the 5 minute tour. We use the same word 'God' but in my childhood God was not something undefined that was to be discovered and searched out. God was not beyond definition. 'God is love' was a definition of God for me, along with several other definitions and titles. God was infinite but God is/was a personal influence in my daily life, a person who loved me intensely (and everyone). Among modern Christians it is often independently decided by individuals (as it was by me) that God created the world because of his love which was like a pregnant energy. Its often expressed as 'God wanted someone to love other than himself so he created.' It is interestingly very different from the Jewish K. concept of creation as I have heard it explained to me. Each person, loved intensely, is known thoroughly and is infinitely valuable.

I would not at first have thought God would be the cause of my stubbed toe. That was only a later opinion.

 

[paarsurrey]

Because there are areas whereas science and religion overlap. If we deal with "creation", for example, both chime in on that subject.

If the subject is related to material and physical search; then one should accept the findings of the science.

Regards

 

[Avi1001]

If the subject is related to material and physical search; then one should accept the findings of the science.

Regards

This is correct. Therefore, the study of creation of the universe and the earth are fully within the domain of science, and religion has nothing to say about these topics. Are we in full agreement?

 

[metis]

If the subject is related to material and physical search; then one should accept the findings of the science.

Regards

Which is my orientation as I was an anthropologist, now retired.

 

[paarsurrey]

@Avi1001

Hi my Jewish friend

What do you understand from inspiration and the revelation ?

1. I understand that Revelation is not brain-work of a Prophet/Messenger of One-True-God (G-d) ; its words come to him from exterior. It is for this that it is called Word of God and not the words of that prophet/messenger as it is authored by G-d, not by the prophet/messenger.

2. Inspiration is that which cannot be called Word of God; as its whole subject comes to the mind of the prophet/messenger and he narrates it or writes it in his own words. He himself does not say that it is Word of God.

These are distinct from the works of poets; what they write is their brain-child.

This is just to understand one-another and to bridge gaps between your and mine thinking.

I respect your religion/faith and thinking; nevertheless I express my thoughts frankly to know your thought frankly. There is no intention to insult or to disrespect you or your fellow religionists.

Please reply if you find it convenient.

Others are also encouraged to reply.

Regards to everybody