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Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

xkatz

Well-Known Member
Judaism isn't meant for everyone...but who decides...you ? Levite ? CMike ? No. The individual must decide for herself/himself. Any other approach is exclusionary and elitist. The fact that this question is being proposed as a Sticky shows a lack of sensitivity to individual rights.
Yes the individual decides if they want to be Jewish but that means that said individual has a commitment to Judaism and the Jewish people if they decide to convert. This isn't just a matter of individualism and AFAIK communities have a the right to make their own rules (as long as it doesn't forcefully coerce others).
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Did I ever deny Avi is a Jew?

I have been excluded from the DIR.

I am not permitted to discuss issues related to moderation (Rule # 4), but actions by members of the DIR prevent me from entering. So I will fight the good fight in the Debate Forum.

Furthermore, it appears that the Sticky is additional effort to prevent certain Jews from entering the DIR. One has to be the "right kind of Jew" to enter. That is what "Who is a Jew" is about.
 
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xkatz

Well-Known Member
Furthermore, it appears that the Sticky is additional effort to prevent certain Jews from entering the DIR. One has to be the "right kind of Jew" to enter. That is what "Who is a Jew" is about.
Except we are on the internet, where people generally can't verify who (or what) you are. Anyone on the internet can claim to be Jewish (for better or worse). So no, it's not to exclude people but to answer a question that's asked ad-nausea (even so for me IRL). And Judaism DIR is not quite the same thing as having a Jewish DIR.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Except we are on the internet, where people generally can't verify who (or what) you are. Anyone on the internet can claim to be Jewish (for better or worse). So no, it's not to exclude people but to answer a question that's asked ad-nausea (even so for me IRL). And Judaism DIR is not quite the same thing as having a Jewish DIR.

That's the problem. The question being posed is 'who is Jewish', not, 'who is practicing the type of Judaism in accordance with the DIR specifications'.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Even more reasons not to have such a Sticky. What other reason would one post such a Sticky if not to force posters to: "Ask respectful questions".

It's all about control. Are you also a control guy, xkatz ?

And although there is a subtle difference between a Judaism and Jewish DIR. The Sticky is about control of discussion in the DIR.


Except we are on the internet, where people generally can't verify who (or what) you are. Anyone on the internet can claim to be Jewish (for better or worse). So no, it's not to exclude people but to answer a question that's asked ad-nausea (even so for me IRL). And Judaism DIR is not quite the same thing as having a Jewish DIR.
 
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Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
That's the problem. The question being posed is 'who is Jewish', not, 'who is practicing the type of Judaism in accordance with the DIR specifications'.

Correct. There are other reasons this Sticky is being created. It is about excluding new ideas.
 

xkatz

Well-Known Member
Even more reasons not to have such a Sticky. What other reason would one post such a Sticky if not to force posters to: "Ask respectful questions".
So instead we should keep on having this question asked in unnecessary multiple threads? :rolleyes:

It's all about control. Are you also a control guy, xkatz ?
I'm about being sensible.
 
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xkatz

Well-Known Member
That's the problem. The question being posed is 'who is Jewish', not, 'who is practicing the type of Judaism in accordance with the DIR specifications'.
Well the two go hand-in-hand often enough that I am constantly asked this question, even in real life. I think it deserves clarification from all the various viewpoints within Judaism.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
I am once again embarrassed that any Jew would post such an arrogant, exclusionary, and elitist post, as "Who is a Jew".

Clearly, anyone who wishes to be a Jew should be welcomed into the religion.

Does the Jew have to receive conversion from a certified Rabbi ? Who certifies the Rabbi ? Do Humanist Rabbi's account ? Renewal Rabbi's ? Reconstructionist ? Reform ? Messianic Rabbi ?

Why would anyone want to place such divisive conditions in a Sticky ? It shows a lack of common sense by a small group of extremists who control the DIR.

Please let me know if you agree that this elitist behavior should not be tolerated in the DIR and we can create a referendum to that affect.

It is thoroughly ridiculous to dismiss as "extremist" what are minor variations of the only position on Jewish identity in over eighteen hundred years up until around thirty years ago.

It is also embarrassingly simplistic (if nothing else) to suggest that any culture, Judaism or otherwise, should have no boundaries, and affiliation of membership within it should be a matter of casual whim. That is an excellent recipe for ensuring that the culture in question will cease to exist in short order.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
It is thoroughly ridiculous to dismiss as "extremist" what are minor variations of the only position on Jewish identity in over eighteen hundred years up until around thirty years ago.

It is also embarrassingly simplistic (if nothing else) to suggest that any culture, Judaism or otherwise, should have no boundaries, and affiliation of membership within it should be a matter of casual whim. That is an excellent recipe for ensuring that the culture in question will cease to exist in short order.

If you can ask the question: "Who is a Jew", many will ask: "Why" ?

Why would you ask such a question ? In this case it appears you may be asking it because you want to tell certain people: "You may ask respectful questions only".

And, if your argument is, essentially, "this person is a Jew, because I say so", it's not going to fly anymore.

We have too many choices for religion, and too many ways to practice.

I believe Judaism must be very inclusive. We cannot exclude people for irrelevant reasons. We must adapt to a changing world....otherwise we become like Conservative Judaism, a shrinking denomination with little relevence.
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
If you can ask the question: "Who is a Jew", many will ask: "Why" ?

Why do you ask that question ? If you can think of a good answer, fine, it is at least a starting point.

But, if your answer is, essentially, "because I say so", it's not going to fly anymore.

We have too many choices for religion, and too many ways to practice.

I believe Judaism must be very inclusive. We cannot exclude people for irrelevant reasons. We must adapt to a changing world....otherwise we are no different than Conservative Judaism, a shrinking denomination with little relevence.

Inclusivity is good. But recklessly inclusive of anything and everything, without question, is not good. Perhaps you've heard the expression, "Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out."

Every society, every culture, needs boundaries and rules to function, otherwise it quickly ceases to become an integrated, coherent phenomenon, and simply becomes a chaotic mess of individuals rapidly drifting away from one another into the random courses of their own whims. Thoughtless adaptation born of humanistic relativism and a blind desire to be acceptable to others is no adaptation or not, it's just sacrifice of one's own culture and identity to the chance currents of assimilation and cultural homogenization.

Yes, the Conservative movement is shrinking, largely because the age of movements is approaching its end. There was never really such a thing as an Orthodox movement to begin with-- Orthodoxy is simply a large bloc of communities of halachic Jews who share certain philosophies of halachah and observance to one degree or another. Eventually, there will simply be halachic Jews and non-halachic Jews, in independent and comparatively loosely related communities. Halachic Jews will consist of a relatively large number of charedi communities and a relatively small number of communities made up of people who would now identify either as Open Orthodox or center/right Conservative, with perhaps a small sprinkling of Reconstructionists. Non-halachic Jews will consist of a small number of communities with precariously balanced standards hearkening back in some way to tradition, made up of people who would now identify as left-wing Conservative, right-wing Reform Jews, with some Reconstructionists; and a large number of communities of people who are not halachically Jewish, know virtually nothing about Judaism and Jewish text and tradition, but self-identify in some fashion as Jews, made up of people who would now identify as center/left Reform, some Reconstructionist, and various fringe elements from Renewal, from secular or humanistic Judaism, from Messianic Judaism, and so forth.

The shrinkage of the Conservative movement, in other words, has nothing to do with the relevance of what Conservative scholarship teaches; it is simply an attendant phenomenon of the next alteration in how the global Jewish community will arrange and identify itself.

Having an answer to the question "Who is a Jew" is not about power, mostly because the people who feel oppressed by having an answer to that question are not Jews themselves, or they are so very far to the radical leftmost fringe of Judaism that they were never in a position of any authority or recognition anywhere in the main stream of Jewish thought anyhow.

Having an answer to that question is simply about being able to easily and readily determine: when we make a minyan, when we need halachic witnesses, when we are considering marriages and divorces, when we are deciding whose kids shall be given space in our congregations for bar/bat mitzvah celebrations, when we need Torah readers or wish to call people for aliyot, when we need a mizumin for birkat hamazon, and so on-- who may qualify, and who may not? And secondarily, when we have discussions within the Jewish community about issues relevant to our beliefs, our traditions, our halachah, our issues of identity and self-direction-- who should have a voice, and who should not?

If a person is committed to living a Jewish life, participating in Jewish ritual, and being a part of the conversations of the Jewish People, it should be entirely appropriate and reasonable for them to convert properly, presuming that they were not born to Jewish mothers. If this is a problem for them, the question must be asked: why, if their commitment to being Jewish is so strong, is this relatively easy entry into being a Jew too much for them to do?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I am once again embarrassed that any Jew would post such an arrogant, exclusionary, and elitist post, as "Who is a Jew".

Clearly, anyone who wishes to be a Jew should be welcomed into the religion.

Does the Jew have to receive conversion from a certified Rabbi ? Who certifies the Rabbi ? Do Humanist Rabbi's account ? Renewal Rabbi's ? Reconstructionist ? Reform ? Messianic Rabbi ?

Why would anyone want to place such divisive conditions in a Sticky ? It shows a lack of common sense by a small group of extremists who control the DIR.

Please let me know if you agree that this elitist behavior should not be tolerated in the DIR and we can create a referendum to that affect.

This is one reason Judaism once an open religion when they adopted such creeds they ceased to spread.

Arab Jews if ever dislocated from the Arab-lands had a right to return to their native places; other converts to Judaism in different lands did not have this right to settle there; when they insisted to settle there and were encouraged to do so just because of being coreligionists that was wrong and created hatred. This is another cause of Judaism not being spread.

And there are others...

Regards
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Great argument, Levite, you are indeed a brilliant Rabbi and fine debater.

But there is a paradigm shift occurring, and if you do not see it, you will be left behind.

Conservative Judaism is shrinking and will probably disappear in 25-50 years. I myself was born and raised Conservative, which is why I know it's problems so well.

This generation of Jews, many doctors, scientists and engineers no longer accept "you are a Conservative Jew so you will do what you are told" approach. There were too any holes in the logic. The ritual is too empty and meaningless. Most of my generation switched to reform. We are secular people. Ethical and moral values are the most important part of religion. Leaders like Moses Mendslsohn and Zalman Schector-Shalomi inspire us. We do not just jump through the hoops of meaningless ritual.

The positions of the State of Israel must be looked at carefully. Israel cannot just roll into Gaza and have thousands of civilians die in collateral damage, without ramifications. It is against our moral and ethical belief system. Israel must become leaders in asymmetric warfare using drones and other intelligence for surgical strike force.

Every time I enter the Judaism DIR I am reported. It seems the DIR members are very fearful to hear me out. I will continue to speak from the Debate Forum. It is the Jewish way to behave.

Regards,
Avi




Inclusivity is good. But recklessly inclusive of anything and everything, without question, is not good. Perhaps you've heard the expression, "Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out."

Every society, every culture, needs boundaries and rules to function, otherwise it quickly ceases to become an integrated, coherent phenomenon, and simply becomes a chaotic mess of individuals rapidly drifting away from one another into the random courses of their own whims. Thoughtless adaptation born of humanistic relativism and a blind desire to be acceptable to others is no adaptation or not, it's just sacrifice of one's own culture and identity to the chance currents of assimilation and cultural homogenization.

Yes, the Conservative movement is shrinking, largely because the age of movements is approaching its end. There was never really such a thing as an Orthodox movement to begin with-- Orthodoxy is simply a large bloc of communities of halachic Jews who share certain philosophies of halachah and observance to one degree or another. Eventually, there will simply be halachic Jews and non-halachic Jews, in independent and comparatively loosely related communities. Halachic Jews will consist of a relatively large number of charedi communities and a relatively small number of communities made up of people who would now identify either as Open Orthodox or center/right Conservative, with perhaps a small sprinkling of Reconstructionists. Non-halachic Jews will consist of a small number of communities with precariously balanced standards hearkening back in some way to tradition, made up of people who would now identify as left-wing Conservative, right-wing Reform Jews, with some Reconstructionists; and a large number of communities of people who are not halachically Jewish, know virtually nothing about Judaism and Jewish text and tradition, but self-identify in some fashion as Jews, made up of people who would now identify as center/left Reform, some Reconstructionist, and various fringe elements from Renewal, from secular or humanistic Judaism, from Messianic Judaism, and so forth.

The shrinkage of the Conservative movement, in other words, has nothing to do with the relevance of what Conservative scholarship teaches; it is simply an attendant phenomenon of the next alteration in how the global Jewish community will arrange and identify itself.

Having an answer to the question "Who is a Jew" is not about power, mostly because the people who feel oppressed by having an answer to that question are not Jews themselves, or they are so very far to the radical leftmost fringe of Judaism that they were never in a position of any authority or recognition anywhere in the main stream of Jewish thought anyhow.

Having an answer to that question is simply about being able to easily and readily determine: when we make a minyan, when we need halachic witnesses, when we are considering marriages and divorces, when we are deciding whose kids shall be given space in our congregations for bar/bat mitzvah celebrations, when we need Torah readers or wish to call people for aliyot, when we need a mizumin for birkat hamazon, and so on-- who may qualify, and who may not? And secondarily, when we have discussions within the Jewish community about issues relevant to our beliefs, our traditions, our halachah, our issues of identity and self-direction-- who should have a voice, and who should not?

If a person is committed to living a Jewish life, participating in Jewish ritual, and being a part of the conversations of the Jewish People, it should be entirely appropriate and reasonable for them to convert properly, presuming that they were not born to Jewish mothers. If this is a problem for them, the question must be asked: why, if their commitment to being Jewish is so strong, is this relatively easy entry into being a Jew too much for them to do?
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Great argument, Levite, you are indeed a brilliant Rabbi and fine debater.

But there is a paradigm shift occurring, and if you do not see it, you will be left behind.

Conservative Judaism is shrinking and will probably disappear in 25-50 years. I myself was born and raised Conservative, which is why I know it's problems so well.

This generation of Jews, many doctors, scientists and engineers no longer accept "you are a Conservative Jew so you will do what you are told" approach. There were too any holes in the logic. The ritual is too empty and meaningless. Most of my generation switched to reform. We are secular people. Ethical and moral values are the most important part of religion. Leaders like Moses Mendslsohn and Zalman Schector-Shalomi inspire us. We do not just jump through the hoops of meaningless ritual.

The positions of the State of Israel must be looked at carefully. Israel cannot just roll into Gaza and have thousands of civilians die in collateral damage, without ramifications. It is against our moral and ethical belief system. Israel must become leaders in asymmetric warfare using drones and other intelligence for surgical strike force.

Every time I enter the Judaism DIR I am reported. It seems the DIR members are very fearful to hear me out. I will continue to speak from the Debate Forum. It is the Jewish way to behave.

Regards,
Avi

I agree with you.

Regards
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
"Dear Diary,

today everyone was being mean to me again. It cant be because of what i said or how i act can it? I mean iam the embodiment of wisdom and knowledge and everyone who doesnt agree with me is an extremist who will die out soon.
And so i approach you Diary for you are the only one who understa.... hey what is it, why are you looking at me like that? Wait where are you going Dia..."
 

xkatz

Well-Known Member
But there is a paradigm shift occurring, and if you do not see it, you will be left behind.

Conservative Judaism is shrinking and will probably disappear in 25-50 years. I myself was born and raised Conservative, which is why I know it's problems so well.

This generation of Jews, many doctors, scientists and engineers no longer accept "you are a Conservative Jew so you will do what you are told" approach. There were too any holes in the logic. The ritual is too empty and meaningless. Most of my generation switched to reform. We are secular people. Ethical and moral values are the most important part of religion. Leaders like Moses Mendslsohn and Zalman Schector-Shalomi inspire us. We do not just jump through the hoops of meaningless ritual.
What about the growth of orthodox Judaism? Not all jews who leave reform become less observant. I should know- I am one of those people. It seems to be equally robust if not more-so than reform Judaism.

The positions of the State of Israel must be looked at carefully. Israel cannot just roll into Gaza and have thousands of civilians die in collateral damage, without ramifications. It is against our moral and ethical belief system. Israel must become leaders in asymmetric warfare using drones and other intelligence for surgical strike force.
What does this have to do with Judaism as a religious philosophy?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
"Dear Diary,

today everyone was being mean to me again. It cant be because of what i said or how i act can it? I mean iam the embodiment of wisdom and knowledge and everyone who doesnt agree with me is an extremist who will die out soon.
And so i approach you Diary for you are the only one who understa.... hey what is it, why are you looking at me like that? Wait where are you going Dia..."

I don't get you. Please elaborate.

Regards
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
:D. Unless you are a diary, Flankie, it appears I am speaking to others than just my diary. ;) But that was a cute role playing exercise. :)

Anyway, since you happened to wander along, why not tell us your views of Judaism in Germany ? Are the Orthodox like yourself gaining ground ? If so, (and would be amazing), why ? Is Europe again succumbing to anti-Semitism, this time starting in France ? When will you move to the US ?

"Dear Diary,

today everyone was being mean to me again. It cant be because of what i said or how i act can it? I mean iam the embodiment of wisdom and knowledge and everyone who doesnt agree with me is an extremist who will die out soon.
And so i approach you Diary for you are the only one who understa.... hey what is it, why are you looking at me like that? Wait where are you going Dia..."
 
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Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
What about the growth of orthodox Judaism? Not all jews who leave reform become less observant. I should know- I am one of those people. It seems to be equally robust if not more-so than reform Judaism.

What does this have to do with Judaism as a religious philosophy?

I have heard that Orthodox Judaism (OJ) is growing. If so, it is much less than reform, but probably much faster relative to Conservative, which is shrinking down.

It is actually concerning to me. I think OJ's are not in a good position to deal with the changing world of today. They cling to the past. I hope they will become more responsive.

As a religious philosophy, Judaism is still good and strong. This is possibly its greatest attribute. But it needs to come up to date on issues such as: homosexuality, female Rabbi's and driving on Shabbas. Actually, a complete review of the Halacha would be appropriate to see what changes can be made to make it more relevant.
 
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