Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

[xkatz]

I have heard that Orthodox Judaism (OJ) is growing. If so, it is much less than reform, but probably much faster relative to Conservative, which is shrinking down.

Do you have proof for this statement?

It is actually concerning to me. I think OJ's are not in a good position to deal with the changing world of today. They cling to the past. I hope they will become more responsive.

As a religious philosophy, Judaism is still good and strong. This is possibly its greatest attribute. But it needs to come up to date on issues such as: homosexuality, female Rabbi's and driving on Shabbas. Actually, a complete review of the Halacha would be appropriate to see what changes can be made to make it more relevant.

So basically religions should change to conform to people's desires...?

 

[Avi1001]

Do you have proof for this statement?

So basically religions should change to conform to people's desires...?

Sure, xkatz, I'm an engineer, I work with numbers, read these:

Reform Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Orthodox Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Conservative Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reform Jews- 700k
Orthodox- 529k
Conservative- down from 43% to 33%, which puts it at approx. 600k

Your team is losing, and we know why...lack of relevence.

Also, your facepalm is a combination of arrogance and ignorance. Of course a religion should change to meet peoples needs. What is religion for......what's in the books only ?

 

[xkatz]

Sure, xkatz, I'm an engineer, I work with numbers, read these:

Reform Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Orthodox Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Conservative Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reform Jews- 700k
Orthodox- 529k
Conservative- down from 43% to 33%, which puts it at approx. 600k

We are talking about growth not solely size. I haven't heard the claim of reform having much greater growth than orthodoxy in the US, let alone in the rest of the world. If anything, I've seen the opposite trend.

BTW what about the other 4+ million US jews?

Also, your facepalm is a combination of arrogance and ignorance. Of course a religion should change to meet peoples needs. What is religion for......what's in the books only ?

So it should change b/c people don't want to put any effort into it?

 

[Flankerl]

. Unless you are a diary, Flankie, it appears I am speaking to others than just my diary. But that was a cute role playing exercise.

Anyway, since you happened to wander along, why not tell us your views of Judaism in Germany ? Are the Orthodox like yourself gaining ground ? If so, (and would be amazing), why ? Is Europe again succumbing to anti-Semitism, this time starting in France ? When will you move to the US ?

Iam Orthodox? I attend an Orthodox Synagogue but does that make me Orthodox?
Gaining ground? Due to immigration in the 90s Jewish Life is regrowing.

Succumbing? I have yet to see the Muslims taking control.

The US? Never.

 

[Levite]

Great argument, Levite, you are indeed a brilliant Rabbi and fine debater.

But there is a paradigm shift occurring, and if you do not see it, you will be left behind.

Conservative Judaism is shrinking and will probably disappear in 25-50 years. I myself was born and raised Conservative, which is why I know it's problems so well.

This generation of Jews, many doctors, scientists and engineers no longer accept "you are a Conservative Jew so you will do what you are told" approach. There were too any holes in the logic. The ritual is too empty and meaningless. Most of my generation switched to reform. We are secular people. Ethical and moral values are the most important part of religion. Leaders like Moses Mendslsohn and Zalman Schector-Shalomi inspire us. We do not just jump through the hoops of meaningless ritual.

The positions of the State of Israel must be looked at carefully. Israel cannot just roll into Gaza and have thousands of civilians die in collateral damage, without ramifications. It is against our moral and ethical belief system. Israel must become leaders in asymmetric warfare using drones and other intelligence for surgical strike force.

Every time I enter the Judaism DIR I am reported. It seems the DIR members are very fearful to hear me out. I will continue to speak from the Debate Forum. It is the Jewish way to behave.

Regards,
Avi

If you think that Conservative Judaism boils down to "You are a Conservative Jew so you will do what you are told," then you managed to emerge from your Conservative background without any actual experience of Conservative Judaism.

Ritual is never empty or meaningless, unless one has not been educated in the meanings and functions of those rituals, or unless one is simply too closed-minded to pay attention to the meanings and functions.

You simply do not personally like ritual, nor do you apparently have any sense of spirituality, which would seem to contribute to your apparent disinterest in ritual. It is actually extremely amusing that you would hold up Reb Zalman as an exemplar, since he was more passionate about spirituality than anything, and would have objected vigorously to the idea that ritual was empty and meaningless, or that Judaism should be a secular system of morals and ethics.

In any case, none of this has anything to do with the question of Who is a Jew. Nor does anything about Israeli politics, or your consistently objectionable posting in the Judaism DIR. Which, by the way, you may call fear of your positions if you wish, so long as by "fear of" you mean "annoyance with."

 

[Avi1001]

Iam Orthodox? I attend an Orthodox Synagogue but does that make me Orthodox?
Gaining ground? Due to immigration in the 90s Jewish Life is regrowing.

Succumbing? I have yet to see the Muslims taking control.

The US? Never.

I didn't think you were an OJ. So you are a CJ living in an OJ community. That must be tough. Good luck with that.

It's hard to predict what form the next round of anti-Semitism will assume in Europe. Right now it looks like some sort of fusion between Christian and Muslim anti-Semitism. It we go by history, it is just a matter of time. The Europeans are just too nationalistic.

 

[Avi1001]

I don't think I overstated my case, Levite, just ask the thousands of CJ's that switched to RJ in my generation. It is staggering. Should we make a list of the top 5 reasons:

1) Relevence.
2) Less ritual.
3) Less Rabbinic control.

Would you like to suggest #4-5 ? If not, I will be glad to tell you.

Of course you are right about R. Zalman. I am sure he adhered to some ritual. What attracts me is: interfaith study, spirituality, deconstruction / reconstruction paradigm (see Integral Halacha). I also like R. Mordeci Kaplan's rationalistic approach. But he too was too much into ritual.

If you think that Conservative Judaism boils down to "You are a Conservative Jew so you will do what you are told," then you managed to emerge from your Conservative background without any actual experience of Conservative Judaism.

Ritual is never empty or meaningless, unless one has not been educated in the meanings and functions of those rituals, or unless one is simply too closed-minded to pay attention to the meanings and functions.

You simply do not personally like ritual, nor do you apparently have any sense of spirituality, which would seem to contribute to your apparent disinterest in ritual. It is actually extremely amusing that you would hold up Reb Zalman as an exemplar, since he was more passionate about spirituality than anything, and would have objected vigorously to the idea that ritual was empty and meaningless, or that Judaism should be a secular system of morals and ethics.

In any case, none of this has anything to do with the question of Who is a Jew. Nor does anything about Israeli politics, or your consistently objectionable posting in the Judaism DIR. Which, by the way, you may call fear of your positions if you wish, so long as by "fear of" you mean "annoyance with."

 

[Avi1001]

I do not have data on the other 4+ million Jews. I assume many are unaffiliated. For RJ to reach its enormous size, it likely had something to do with it's faster growth, nu ?

It is a common stereotype of the OJ and CJ that RJ are lazy, uneducated about Judaism, and put little effort into it. If Rabbio were around, he could tell you this is simply not the case. There are many dedicated, well educated RJ's...Metis is a fine example.

We are talking about growth not solely size. I haven't heard the claim of reform having much greater growth than orthodoxy in the US, let alone in the rest of the world. If anything, I've seen the opposite trend.

BTW what about the other 4+ million US jews?

So it should change b/c people don't want to put any effort into it?

 

[Levite]

I don't think I overstated my case, Levite, just ask the thousands of CJ's that switched to RJ in my generation. It is staggering. Should we make a list of the top 5 reasons:

1) Relevence.
2) Less ritual.
3) Less Rabbinic control.

Would you like to suggest #4-5 ? If not, I will be glad to tell you.

Of course you are right about R. Zalman. I am sure he adhered to some ritual. What attracts me is: interfaith study, spirituality, deconstruction / reconstruction paradigm (see Integral Halacha). I also like R. Mordeci Kaplan's rationalistic approach. But he too was too much into ritual.

And what of the thousands that went to Orthodoxy? Is that also staggering?

Frankly the largest number of people who leave any and all of the movements, aside from those who simply disappear into the ether of secular apathy, leave their movements for independent, unaffiliated communities. The institutional Judaism of movements is on the way out, like I said.

Your list of reasons may be reasons you left Conservative Judaism, but I sincerely doubt they describe why any significant number of other people have migrated leftward from Conservative or Orthodox Judaism. The majority of people, both within the Conservative movement and outside it, that I have seen drift away from traditional observance almost all share the hallmarks of severe lack of Jewish education, and/or secularizing apathy, and/or some sort of selfish motivation, like intermarrying. I could probably count on one hand (with fingers left over) the number of people I have ever met who began as Orthodox or Conservative, had good traditional educations, were not intermarried, were interested in remaining participatory and observant in some way, but chose to become Reform for philosophical and theological reasons.

 

[xkatz]

I do not have data on the other 4+ million Jews. I assume many are unaffiliated. For RJ to reach its enormous size, it likely had something to do with it's faster growth, nu ?

RJ is certainly not largest Jewish organization. Ever seen Jewish communities in Israel and Europe? It is certainly not growing any faster than orthodoxy- there is a large and robust baal teshuva movement and also orthodox jews have more children.

It is a common stereotype of the OJ and CJ that RJ are lazy, uneducated about Judaism, and put little effort into it. If Rabbio were around, he could tell you this is simply not the case. There are many dedicated, well educated RJ's...Metis is a fine example.

My problem is not w/ RJ per-say, my problem is Jews who are so iconoclastic that they want to turn Judaism into something that is unrecognizable. You basically trying to preserve Judaism by ripping it out by it's roots. If Judaism has no customs, traditions, practices that give Jews a sense of meaning and a way to connect to G-d, how would Judaism be any different than a vague notion of theism or UUism?

And this isn't a problem I have with just Judaism mind you. Look at what the ultra-liberal Christians like Spong are doing to Christianity or what white people in the west have done to Buddhism.

 

[Desert Snake]

My problem is not w/ RJ per-say, my problem is Jews who are so iconoclastic that they want to turn Judaism into something that is unrecognizable. You basically trying to preserve Judaism by ripping it out by it's roots. If Judaism has no customs, traditions, practices that give Jews a sense of meaning and a way to connect to G-d, how would Judaism be any different than a vague notion of theism or UUism?

And this isn't a problem I have with just Judaism mind you. Look at what the ultra-liberal Christians like Spong are doing to Christianity or what white people in the west have done to Buddhism.

Man that is a lot of assumptions on how RJ and other Jews view things, wow.

 

[xkatz]

Man that is a lot of assumptions on how RJ and other Jews view things, wow.

I am not speaking about RJ or it's ideology- I am talking about individuals who want to do away with so much of Judaism that it ceases to really be Judaism. I made that very clear.

 

[Desert Snake]

I am not speaking about RJ or it's ideology- I am talking about individuals who want to do away with so much of Judaism that it ceases to really be Judaism. I made that very clear.

I guess it depends on ones idea of the core values of 'Judaism'. look, I'm not going to argue some things here, but some of the practices of so-called. more conservative Judaism can also be looked ay very skeptically, it's a two way street is what I'm saying, when it comes to criticizing actions taken by various Jewish groups. I think it's enough to simply be Jewish, that is practicing Judaism, and it was confirmed by RabbiO who even said an atheist Jew is still practicing Judaism.

 

[Flankerl]

I didn't think you were an OJ. So you are a CJ living in an OJ community. That must be tough. Good luck with that.

Huh? Why would that be tough? They are nice people.
Also i have yet to see myself as a CJ.

It's hard to predict what form the next round of anti-Semitism will assume in Europe. Right now it looks like some sort of fusion between Christian and Muslim anti-Semitism. It we go by history, it is just a matter of time. The Europeans are just too nationalistic.

Too nationalistic? Someone has never been to Germany.

 

[Avi1001]

All good points, Levite.

I am indeed stumped by the apparent increase in Orthodox Judaism, but I do not see it as a good thing.

I agree, traditional movements are out....I expect growth of the "new movements", Renewal, Reform, Recon., Humanist, etc.

I also agree the reasons you give are why many leave CJ and OJ, but I see the "exodus" continuing and even increasing. As we learn more about science, G-d becomes "G-d of the gaps". And that is trouble for you and the extremist movements. What it mainly leaves is ethics and morality. Sure, people will always look for spirituality, but they will just as easily find it in a bagel and lox as they will in the Kaballah. Anyway, the reform movements have become leaders in the spiritual realm as well, with Madonna (), and as you point out, yourself, Rav Zalman.

And what of the thousands that went to Orthodoxy? Is that also staggering?

Frankly the largest number of people who leave any and all of the movements, aside from those who simply disappear into the ether of secular apathy, leave their movements for independent, unaffiliated communities. The institutional Judaism of movements is on the way out, like I said.

Your list of reasons may be reasons you left Conservative Judaism, but I sincerely doubt they describe why any significant number of other people have migrated leftward from Conservative or Orthodox Judaism. The majority of people, both within the Conservative movement and outside it, that I have seen drift away from traditional observance almost all share the hallmarks of severe lack of Jewish education, and/or secularizing apathy, and/or some sort of selfish motivation, like intermarrying. I could probably count on one hand (with fingers left over) the number of people I have ever met who began as Orthodox or Conservative, had good traditional educations, were not intermarried, were interested in remaining participatory and observant in some way, but chose to become Reform for philosophical and theological reasons.

 

[Avi1001]

Man that is a lot of assumptions on how RJ and other Jews view things, wow.

Your learning, disciple....would you like to become a Jew ? We can start you off with the circumcision.

 

[Desert Snake]

Your learning, disciple....would you like to become a Jew ? We can start you off with the circumcision.

Lol I would most likely convert to Karaite if I did convert, or RJ....

Btw bagel & lox may not be Scripture but it is close to a 'religious experience'.

 

[Avi1001]

Huh? Why would that be tough? They are nice people.

Also i have yet to see myself as a CJ.

Too nationalistic? Someone has never been to Germany.

I've been...and don't get me started...I love German beer and wurst.

But if the Germans are not nationalistic.....who is...the Japanese ?

And...if your not CJ...and not OJ....that only leaves....RJ...your one of us....Mazel Tov !

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I tried to understand the topic
Is it possible to brief on the theme of dialogue
Accept my statement with respect

 

[Flankerl]

I've been...and don't get me started...I love German beer and wurst.

But if the Germans are not nationalistic.....who is...the Japanese ?

And...if your not CJ...and not OJ....that only leaves....RJ...your one of us....Mazel Tov !

When was the last time you were in Germany? 1936?
The country is basically the laughing stock of the entire continent because it is still somewhat weird to even see a national flag when its not the World or Euro Cup of Football.

No it leaves us with the fact that iam a Jew. Nothing more and nothing less.