Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

[Avi1001]

When one goes to the core of religion; differences remove.

Regards

Yes, my Judeo-Muslim friend, Paar, it is like the spokes of a wheel. They all converge at the center. I think you and I are experiencing some real "interfaith dislogue". By the way, I think your English has improved a great deal.

 

[Avi1001]

Yes. All rivers lead to the same sea.

How true, sunrise123. Are you some sort of naturalist ?

 

[paarsurrey]

@ Avi

Hi my Jewish friend!

I would suggest you reading a small book for in-depth understanding of religion; whatever religion one has:

"The Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam"
Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam

It discusses five important questions pertaining to a religion:

•
FIRST QUESTION
o The Physical, Moral and Spiritual States of Man

That is very important for Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey

It is necessary that a claim and the
reasons in support of it must be set forth
from a revealed book.

In this auspicious Conference the purpose of
which is that those who have been invited to
participate in it should expound the merits of their
respective religions with reference to the questions
that have been formulated.

I shall today set forth the
merits of Islam. Before I proceed to do so I deem it
proper to announce that I have made it obligatory
upon myself that whatever I state will be based upon
the Holy Quran which is the Word of God Almighty.
I consider it essential that everyone who follows a
book, believing it to be revealed, should base his
exposition upon that book and should not so extend
the scope of his advocacy of his faith as if he is
compiling a new book.

As it is my purpose today to
establish the merits of the Holy Quran and to
demonstrate its excellence, it is incumbent upon me
not to state anything which is not comprehended in
the Quran and to set forth everything on the basis of
its verses and in accord with their meaning and that
which might be inferred from them, so that those
attending the Conference should encounter no
difficulty in carrying out a comparison between the
teachings of different religions.

As all those who
believe in a revealed book will also confine
themselves to statements comprised in their
respective revealed books, I shall not make any
reference to the traditions of the Holy Prophet,
inasmuch as all true traditions are only derived from
the Holy Quran which is a perfect book
comprehending all other books. In short this is the
day of the manifestation of the glory of the Holy
Quran and I humbly beseech God Almighty to assist
me in this undertaking. Amin

Page-3
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf

Regards

 

[sun rise]

How true, sunrise123. Are you some sort of naturalist ?

I'm not sure what "naturalist" means in this context. I've found the basic idea that all religions point to the same source in the lives and teachings of those I most respect and love. I've found it in books such as the small book "Oneness: Great Principles Shared by All Religions". One example from that book:

"Sane and insane, all are searching lovelorn
For Him, in mosque, temple, church, alike.
For only God is the One God of Love,
And Love calls from all these, each one His home."

 

[paarsurrey]

Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2



For Avis spiritual journey:

FIRST QUESTION

The Physical, Moral and Spiritual States of Man

In the first few pages of this paper I have set forth
certain introductory matters which might at first sight
seem irrelevant, and yet it is necessary to have a clear
concept of those matters for the proper appreciation
of the reply to the question that has been set out
above.

Three Types of Human Actions

The first question relates to the natural and moral
and spiritual states of man. The Holy Quran has
indicated three separate sources of these three states.
In other words, it has pointed out three springs out
of which these respective states flow.

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf
The Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam: page-3

Regards

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm not sure what "naturalist" means in this context.

I think he means it in a '60's sense. :cover:

 

[Avi1001]

I think he means it in a '60's sense. :cover:

Exactly, we're talking tie dye and bell bottoms.

 

[sun rise]

Exactly, we're talking tie dye and bell bottoms.

I can really dig it. Far out, man. That's a groovy post.

 

[Avi1001]

It is necessary that a claim and the
reasons in support of it must be set forth
from a revealed book......

Hey Paar, my good Muslim friend....would you mind cutting and pasting your Quran pieces to another thread....perhaps one in the Islam sub- or even in the Orthodox Judaism sub- ?

I mean, ya know.....it just ain't so great a fit with my reform Jewish philosophy.

 

[Avi1001]

Good article about Orthodoxy:

How To Not Keep Jews Orthodox

Comments ?

 

[Desert Snake]

Good article about Orthodoxy:

How To Not Keep Jews Orthodox

Comments ?

Shalom Avi

the title of the aritcle matches the content?
Anyways, seems like he converted to Orthodoxy?

 

[Levite]

Good article about Orthodoxy:

How To Not Keep Jews Orthodox

Comments ?

There is a lot of truth in what he says.

I think he's right that people are drawn to be part of traditional, observant lives and communities because they are seeking for something greater, seeking closeness to God, among other reasons. And when kiruv fails, it's because it doesn't respect that in its fullness.

But also because the charedi and center-right Orthodox community is finding that one of the biggest flaws in being open to only narrow set of interpretations, and in constantly emphasizing strictness and asceticism, is that when leaders or prominent members of the community fail to live up to standards even far below those usually promulgated for the community, there is a tendency to hush it up, rather than address the issues, and the reality that some of the ways that right-wing Orthodoxy is inflexible and focused more on certain mitzvot and less on others is, in fact, providing enablement of some very serious transgressions. And people who came to Orthodoxy under the inducement of a rich spiritual and moral life are understandably going to be disappointed with hypocrisy.

Open Orthodoxy is doing a fairly decent job of not getting caught in those particular problems, but it would be nice if there were more non-Orthodox options available for people who want traditional observance and lives of spirituality and closeness to God. We're not doing such a great job with that in the non-Orthodox world, though we are undoubtedly doing better with not hushing up the criminal failures of our prominent members, which is something, anyway.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I've read the article, too. It reinforces my belief that all conversion experiences are unpleasant overall with some nice parts, and I suspect all religious conversions share similar stages that can be generalized to a common flowchart. I'm not saying all conversions are the same. I'm saying conversion probably has something like what the OSI stack is for networking.

 

[sun rise]

I had to look up a couple of words such as kiruv but found it an interesting read. It describes issues with exoteric religious practice and the limitations people perceive.

I'll contrast that with the most influential article on Judaism I ever read, in May 1969, and that I still have today. The title is "The Zaddik" by Sheldon Kopp which had the purpose of relating the zaddik of tradition to contemporary psychology.

But it was my introduction to a philosophy expressed in very simple terms that is meaningful to me today: "I did not go to my zaddik to learn Torah from him, but to watch him tie his bootlaces." The article expressed this in a less poetic way thusly:

The zaddik did not teach what to do. Instead, through the relationship, he communicated how to do things. He taught that the way to live is with all your being, that the most important thing in life is just what you are doing right now. We must hallow everyday life.

The article goes on to sadly note that Hasidim gradually lost its way and became corrupt.

That article was a signpost helping me understand that I was not interested in finding something meaningful to me and convincing people to join me. Rather, for me, the way is to live my life the best I can, to try to "hallow everyday life". And then the rest will take care of itself.

 

[Desert Snake]

I've read the article, too. It reinforces my belief that all conversion experiences are unpleasant overall with some nice parts, and I suspect all religious conversions share similar stages that can be generalized to a common flowchart. I'm not saying all conversions are the same. I'm saying conversion probably has something like what the OSI stack is for networking.

Are you speaking from experience?
I don't attend church or any house of worship, never 'converted', to anything, probably wouldn't, so I wonder what the NEGATIVE aspects would be.

If I went to some church to be baptized, made a 'member' of the congregation, if it wasn't a 'positive' experience i'm outta there. that's just me.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Yes I converted before, but only from one form of Christianity to another. It required getting baptised again and was a fairly severe conversion. From that I look at conversions that other people have and see some parallels. I've also talked with converts to Christianity and to other religions. Its just bits and scraps, but I think its enough to make a generalization.

I wonder what the NEGATIVE aspects would be.

Maybe another time.

 

[Avi1001]

Shalom Avi

the title of the aritcle matches the content?
Anyways, seems like he converted to Orthodoxy?

You have to read it carefully, disciple. He discusses the struggle of his conversion.

 

[Avi1001]

I am empathetic to the search that he describes. It seems that he concludes to remain with Orthodox, and I cannot understand his reasoning, but I appreciate his struggle.

There is a lot of truth in what he says.

I think he's right that people are drawn to be part of traditional, observant lives and communities because they are seeking for something greater, seeking closeness to God, among other reasons. And when kiruv fails, it's because it doesn't respect that in its fullness.

But also because the charedi and center-right Orthodox community is finding that one of the biggest flaws in being open to only narrow set of interpretations, and in constantly emphasizing strictness and asceticism, is that when leaders or prominent members of the community fail to live up to standards even far below those usually promulgated for the community, there is a tendency to hush it up, rather than address the issues, and the reality that some of the ways that right-wing Orthodoxy is inflexible and focused more on certain mitzvot and less on others is, in fact, providing enablement of some very serious transgressions. And people who came to Orthodoxy under the inducement of a rich spiritual and moral life are understandably going to be disappointed with hypocrisy.

Open Orthodoxy is doing a fairly decent job of not getting caught in those particular problems, but it would be nice if there were more non-Orthodox options available for people who want traditional observance and lives of spirituality and closeness to God. We're not doing such a great job with that in the non-Orthodox world, though we are undoubtedly doing better with not hushing up the criminal failures of our prominent members, which is something, anyway.

 

[Avi1001]

I've read the article, too. It reinforces my belief that all conversion experiences are unpleasant overall with some nice parts, and I suspect all religious conversions share similar stages that can be generalized to a common flowchart. I'm not saying all conversions are the same. I'm saying conversion probably has something like what the OSI stack is for networking.

I like the analogy to the OSI stack.

I have no doubt that all conversions are challenging. My own travels took me from Conservative Jew to non-practicing to reform Jew. I would not say my path was unpleasant. But I am still exploring every day. Who knows what tomorrow brings....Judeo-Muslim or HinduJuBu ?

 

[Avi1001]

Thanks for sharing these thoughts, sunrise. It appears that you are an non-identified Jew(although I suppose "kibitzer" gives us a clue), is that the case ?

I had to look up a couple of words such as kiruv but found it an interesting read. It describes issues with exoteric religious practice and the limitations people perceive.

I'll contrast that with the most influential article on Judaism I ever read, in May 1969, and that I still have today. The title is "The Zaddik" by Sheldon Kopp which had the purpose of relating the zaddik of tradition to contemporary psychology.

But it was my introduction to a philosophy expressed in very simple terms that is meaningful to me today: "I did not go to my zaddik to learn Torah from him, but to watch him tie his bootlaces." The article expressed this in a less poetic way thusly: The article goes on to sadly note that Hasidim gradually lost its way and became corrupt.

That article was a signpost helping me understand that I was not interested in finding something meaningful to me and convincing people to join me. Rather, for me, the way is to live my life the best I can, to try to "hallow everyday life". And then the rest will take care of itself.