Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

[sun rise]

Thanks for sharing these thoughts, sunrise. It appears that you are an non-identified Jew(although I suppose "kibitzer" gives us a clue), is that the case ?

I got in trouble in the Judaism DIR because I did not have Jew/Jewish in the religion field but, yes, I'm Jewish, went to Folkshul when I was young, studied Hebrew which I've utterly forgotten except for a couple of prayers and so forth.

 

[Avi1001]

I got in trouble in the Judaism DIR because I did not have Jew/Jewish in the religion field but, yes, I'm Jewish, went to Folkshul when I was young, studied Hebrew which I've utterly forgotten except for a couple of prayers and so forth.

Having studied at Folkshul probably made you the most ethical and moral person in the DIR, but without the label "Jewish"......it's respectful kibitzing questions only, for you !

The guys over in the DIR don't understand Humanistic Judaism of the type you learned at Folkshul. They are more in the Orthodox and Conservative mode (extremists).

 

[Levite]

Having studied at Folkshul probably made you the most ethical and moral person in the DIR

You don't know anyone in the DIR well enough to make such a judgement.

The guys over in the DIR don't understand Humanistic Judaism of the type you learned at Folkshul. They are more in the Orthodox and Conservative mode (extremists).

To be Conservative or Orthodox doesn't make one an extremist. Very few of the Orthodox posters are actually extremist. And painting those of us who are not actually extremists with such a broad brush not only insults us, but it debases the meaning and effectiveness of the term, almost to complete meaninglessness.

 

[sun rise]

Having studied at Folkshul probably made you the most ethical and moral person in the DIR, but without the label "Jewish"......it's respectful kibitzing questions only, for you !

The guys over in the DIR don't understand Humanistic Judaism of the type you learned at Folkshul. They are more in the Orthodox and Conservative mode (extremists).

I appreciate the kind words but, knowing myself and my weaknesses and shortcomings, I would not so label myself.

But it is ironic that I received the attacks I did in the Jewish DIR. I came to RF because of an internet search that happened to turn up a question in the Islam DIR to which I knew the answer. There was no comment in that DIR to my answer.

Rather in the Jewish DIR, the letter of rule 10 was not sufficient and it was made clear to me that I had to state Judaism in the "religion" field to post there. I'm not interested in doing that and life is too short or perhaps I'm too old to want to go where I'm not wanted.

 

[Avi1001]

Hi Levite, in fact, I know the folks in the DIR pretty well. When I first joined, one poster was so mean to me that it became required that we both put each other on ignore !

With respect to extremism, I stand by my statement that the Orthodox and Conservative Jews in the DIR are indeed extremists. Just look how they treated an educated humanist like sunrise123.

No, Rabbi, this is not the DIR where you can threaten people by asserting that you are insulted....you are in a debate forum here...if you want to debate you will need to use your skills...not just politics.

You don't know anyone in the DIR well enough to make such a judgement.

To be Conservative or Orthodox doesn't make one an extremist. Very few of the Orthodox posters are actually extremist. And painting those of us who are not actually extremists with such a broad brush not only insults us, but it debases the meaning and effectiveness of the term, almost to complete meaninglessness.

 

[Levite]

Hi Levite, in fact, I know the folks in the DIR pretty well. When I first joined, one poster was so mean to me that it became required that we both put each other on ignore !

With respect to extremism, I stand by my statement that the Orthodox and Conservative Jews in the DIR are indeed extremists. Just look how they treated an educated humanist like sunrise123.

No, Rabbi, this is not the DIR where you can threaten people by asserting that you are insulted....you are in a debate forum here...if you want to debate you will need to use your skills...not just politics.

If you think that it is extremism to have some basic boundaries, then I congratulate you for never having encountered actual extremism before.

In any case, I was not threatening-- nor indeed, have I ever threatened. I was merely remarking that what you said was insulting to me and most of the other DIR members. But perhaps that was your intent. Or perhaps you simply don't care.

And while I sympathize with being annoyed by what others on the internet say, merely finding a person's online words to be mean is not enough to gauge whether they are, holistically, a moral person. None of us here actually know one another. It is entirely possible that people who say some unpleasant things online do lots of tzedakah in their community, for example, whereas some people who are perfectly polite online may be uncaring and selfish in real life.

You certainly have room to have opinions about whether you find some people on this site more polite than others, or more or less welcoming to you, or more to your liking in terms of their beliefs and arguments. But none of those things add up to you having anything approaching sufficient grounds to determine a moral evaluation of any person as a whole.

There is certainly nothing I-- or anyone else-- can do to prevent you from labelling Conservative and Orthodox Jews as extremists, though doing so appears by turns to be either woefully ignorant or fatuously naive. But I do think your attempts at discussion and debate would be more fruitful if you did not simply label everyone with whom you disagree a radical or an extremist, or try to paint them as manipulators or tyrants.

 

[Avi1001]

Sunrise, I am sorry to hear the DIR people were mean to you too.

The rule 10 folks can always find a way to use it against you, if your views are neither Orthodox or Conservative. It is good that you sought safety here in the debate sub-forum.

I appreciate the kind words but, knowing myself and my weaknesses and shortcomings, I would not so label myself.

But it is ironic that I received the attacks I did in the Jewish DIR. I came to RF because of an internet search that happened to turn up a question in the Islam DIR to which I knew the answer. There was no comment in that DIR to my answer.

Rather in the Jewish DIR, the letter of rule 10 was not sufficient and it was made clear to me that I had to state Judaism in the "religion" field to post there. I'm not interested in doing that and life is too short or perhaps I'm too old to want to go where I'm not wanted.

 

[Desert Snake]

I got in trouble in the Judaism DIR because I did not have Jew/Jewish in the religion field but, yes, I'm Jewish, went to Folkshul when I was young, studied Hebrew which I've utterly forgotten except for a couple of prayers and so forth.

shalom
the dir is pretty 'strict', that's why we have Avi's thread.

 

[Avi1001]

shalom
the dir is pretty 'strict', that's why we have Avi's thread.

Thank you, disciple, you are always welcome to come here and share your rebellious views !

 

[sun rise]

Sunrise, I am sorry to hear the DIR people were mean to you too.

The rule 10 folks can always find a way to use it against you, if your views are neither Orthodox or Conservative. It is good that you sought safety here in the debate sub-forum.

I want to single out Zardoz for politeness. Saying that the rules are thus-and-so is one thing. Being polite is another and I appreciated how he dealt with me.

 

[sun rise]

shalom
the dir is pretty 'strict', that's why we have Avi's thread.

Maybe in classic Jewish tradition, we should have two Jewish DIRs with different rules. :dreidel::menorah:

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi Levite, in fact, I know the folks in the DIR pretty well. When I first joined, one poster was so mean to me that it became required that we both put each other on ignore !

With respect to extremism, I stand by my statement that the Orthodox and Conservative Jews in the DIR are indeed extremists. Just look how they treated an educated humanist like sunrise123.

No, Rabbi, this is not the DIR where you can threaten people by asserting that you are insulted....you are in a debate forum here...if you want to debate you will need to use your skills...not just politics.

the Orthodox and Conservative Jews in the DIR are indeed extremists

What is your concept of an extremist? Please

Regards

 

[Flankerl]

The rule 10 folks can always find a way to use it against you, if your views are neither Orthodox or Conservative.

Which is why there are Reform Jews and even Zardoz.

Zardoz.

Having studied at Folkshul probably made you the most ethical and moral person in the DIR, but without the label "Jewish"......it's respectful kibitzing questions only, for you !

Holy **** is it really so difficult to understand?
Its the Judaism DIR. In the DIR ideas relevant to Judaism are being talked about.
Its not the Jewish DIR which encompasses a wider variety of themes and sometimes even apostates.

Its not quantum physics.

The guys over in the DIR don't understand Humanistic Judaism of the type you learned at Folkshul. They are more in the Orthodox and Conservative mode (extremists).

Is there a special reason you always resort to name calling? You started this thread but this doesnt give you the right to engage in this kind of libel.

And no a stupid little smiley doesnt make the whole sentence better.

But I do think your attempts at discussion and debate would be more fruitful if you did not simply label everyone with whom you disagree a radical or an extremist, or try to paint them as manipulators or tyrants.

Are you insane?

 

[Akivah]

What is your concept of an extremist? Please

Regards

Offhand, it looks like Avi's defintion of extremist is anyone that disagrees with Avi.

 

[sun rise]

...

Holy **** is it really so difficult to understand?
Its the Judaism DIR. In the DIR ideas relevant to Judaism are being talked about.
Its not the Jewish DIR which encompasses a wider variety of themes and sometimes even apostates.

Its not quantum physics.
...

My "offense" was to answer a question that had been posed which others agreed with.

Part of the problem is that people have very different ideas about what Judaism is. For example

Judaism can be thought of as being simultaneously a religion, a nationality and a culture.

Are Jews a Nation or a Religion? | Jewish Virtual Library And other sites such as

Judaism is both a cultural and religious identity

What Is "Jewish?"

And you have beliefs that go from Orthodox all the way to Humanistic Judaism which has a separate sub DIR.

And there is a question in the DIR "Who is a Jew" not "What is Judaism"

And the rule was clearly spelled out:

The thing is, you must identify as a Jew in your Religion label tag. It's only fair, nu? Something generic like 'Love' might apply to almost all religions, yet the idea with DIR is that a forum member can belong only one or in rare cases two DIRs

-that comment did not say Judaism but "Identify as a Jew".

And my post included:

But as a note in case any are interested, Judaism impacts my life in that I try to practice what The Baal Shem Tov called the "Torah of the Heart" and live by the law of love which amongst other places is from the Torah Leviticus 19:18

So it's not rocket science. The rule is that I would have to put the word "Jew" in the Religion label tag to post in the DIR.

 

[metis]

Listen, if I can be accepted as a "Jew" by my fellow Jews, then just about anyone can. And for those who can't accept me as such, here's my message to them:

 

[paarsurrey]

Offhand, it looks like Avi's defintion of extremist is anyone that disagrees with Avi.

Avi to respond , please.

Regards

 

[Avi1001]

This is a fine, how do you do.

I would say, in general, that a humanist, like sunrise, is probably more moral and ethical than the folks in the DIR. I doubt he would try to get me thrown out of the DIR just because I disagree with him. Also, I doubt he would try to bully or intimidate me into giving power to the existing authority in the DIR. In short, he would behave like a mensch.

If you think that it is extremism to have some basic boundaries, then I congratulate you for never having encountered actual extremism before.

In any case, I was not threatening-- nor indeed, have I ever threatened. I was merely remarking that what you said was insulting to me and most of the other DIR members. But perhaps that was your intent. Or perhaps you simply don't care.

And while I sympathize with being annoyed by what others on the internet say, merely finding a person's online words to be mean is not enough to gauge whether they are, holistically, a moral person. None of us here actually know one another. It is entirely possible that people who say some unpleasant things online do lots of tzedakah in their community, for example, whereas some people who are perfectly polite online may be uncaring and selfish in real life.

You certainly have room to have opinions about whether you find some people on this site more polite than others, or more or less welcoming to you, or more to your liking in terms of their beliefs and arguments. But none of those things add up to you having anything approaching sufficient grounds to determine a moral evaluation of any person as a whole.

There is certainly nothing I-- or anyone else-- can do to prevent you from labelling Conservative and Orthodox Jews as extremists, though doing so appears by turns to be either woefully ignorant or fatuously naive. But I do think your attempts at discussion and debate would be more fruitful if you did not simply label everyone with whom you disagree a radical or an extremist, or try to paint them as manipulators or tyrants.

 

[Avi1001]

I want to single out Zardoz for politeness. Saying that the rules are thus-and-so is one thing. Being polite is another and I appreciated how he dealt with me.

Zardoz is cool. That's why they made him Staff. Only the best posters make it all the way to Staff. I don't know if you realize, he is a Messianic Jew, so he knows a lot about Conservative and Orthodox Judaism. And I don't think he has threatened me directly yet.

 

[Avi1001]

Maybe in classic Jewish tradition, we should have two Jewish DIRs with different rules. :dreidel::menorah:

Exactly, we do. There's the Judaism DIR, and "Avi's" thread ! Come on in, pull up a chair, have a brew, and lets talk Torah and Talmud.