Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

[Desert Snake]

Jew comes from Judean. There was a kingdom of Judah in the Land of Israel for centuries, and the country was known as Judea for hundreds more. Judean is also equivalent with Israelite, and there was a kingdom of Israel for hundreds of years, the land has been called Israel for thousands of years, and there is a country called Israel on art of the same land now.

This is all common knowledge. Don't pretend to ignorance.

I've read quite a few arguments with the pretext of differentiation between Judah and Israel, and relating it to theistic ideas, so, may not be as common as you think.

 

[paarsurrey]

I have no idea how you interpreted my short statement "Jonah was Jewish" to mean "Jonah was not a Jew". You reached a conclusion directly opposite of what I typed. I wasn't distinguishing between Jew and Jewish, that's on you.

I'll try again:
Jonah was a Jew (his mother was a Jew), Jonah was Jewish (he followed the Jewish religion), Jonah was a Jewish prophet (G-d told him to speak).

Torah takes heir-ship from the male not the female.

Regards

 

[Akivah]

Paar let me check that. I think Jonah was Jewish however there may be more to the story.

You bet. It is also written that he was a Democrat, collected staves, and preferred pancakes for breakfast.

 

[MD]

I am a Muslim- one who is peaceful, peace promoting and submits to G-d only; it is has no racial connotations. Jew is racial and worldly does not provide any spiritual meanings.

Regards

You obviously haven't met many Jews in your life. I've met Nordic looking Jews, black Jews and arab Jews. It's not a race and the spirituality in its books was plagiarized by Islam, so I don't see how you as a Muslim can deny Judaism.

 

[Akivah]

Torah takes heir-ship from the male not the female.

Regards

The Jewish mother passes along Jewish identity. The father passes along tribal identification, as long as the mother is Jewish.

 

[Desert Snake]

Paar, Jonah was a Hebrew.

 

[Desert Snake]

The Jewish mother passes along Jewish identity. The father passes along tribal identification, as long as the mother is Jewish.

Karaites (Tora true Jews) have male lineage.

 

[Levite]

I've read quite a few arguments with the pretext of differentiation between Judah and Israel, and relating it to theistic ideas....

Arguments made by Jews? Can you cite some examples?

Karaites (Tora true Jews) have male lineage.

Karaism is not "Torah-true Jews." Karaism is a heretical sect founded in the eighth century CE, by a disgruntled wealthy Jew named Anan ben David. Because he lost in a bid to become Exilarch (political liason between the Jewish community and the Caliph's court [and prior to that, the Sassanid Emperor's court]), he founded his own sect, which he claimed without any foundation or basis was a revival of Sadducee Judaism, a literalist sect that had died out in the second century CE (six hundred years earlier). Karaites, in any case, are not strict literalists, but follow a set of interpretive guidelines that their own scholars have come up with. Nor is there any proof that the original Sadducees were strict literalists without any interpretive guidelines of their own.

In any case, none of this is relevant to Jonah, who was a Jew (Hebrew, Israelite, whatever name we want to pick), whether affiliation was deemed patrilineally or matrilineally in his day. He says clearly in his book that he is a Hebrew. Again, Jonah 1:9--
ויאמר אליהם עברי אנכי ואת־ה' אלהי השמים אני ירא אשר־עשה את־הים ואת־היבשה׃
"He said to them, I am a Hebrew, and I hold in awe YHVH the God of Heaven, who made both sea and land."

 

[Desert Snake]

Arguments made by Jews? Can you cite some examples?
Karaism is not "Torah-true Jews." Karaism is a heretical sect founded in the eighth century CE, by a disgruntled wealthy Jew named Anan ben David. Because he lost in a bid to become Exilarch (political liason between the Jewish community and the Caliph's court [and prior to that, the Sassanid Emperor's court]), he founded his own sect, which he claimed without any foundation or basis was a revival of Sadducee Judaism, a literalist sect that had died out in the second century CE (six hundred years earlier). Karaites, in any case, are not strict literalists, but follow a set of interpretive guidelines that their own scholars have come up with. Nor is there any proof that the original Sadducees were strict literalists without any interpretive guidelines of their own.

In any case, none of this is relevant to Jonah, who was a Jew (Hebrew, Israelite, whatever name we want to pick), whether affiliation was deemed patrilineally or matrilineally in his day. He says clearly in his book that he is a Hebrew. Again, Jonah 1:9--
ויאמר אליהם עברי אנכי ואת־ה' אלהי השמים אני ירא אשר־עשה את־הים ואת־היבשה׃
"He said to them, I am a Hebrew, and I hold in awe YHVH the God of Heaven, who made both sea and land."

You said 'common knowledge', not common knowledge for Jews.

 

[xkatz]

Karaites (Tora true Jews) have male lineage.

Yes, b/c the only way to know the true meaning of the Torah is by not having any single authoritative interpretation of the meaning(s) behind the Torah!*

MUH SOLA SCRIPTURA!

*EXTREME SARCASM

 

[paarsurrey]

You obviously haven't met many Jews in your life. I've met Nordic looking Jews, black Jews and arab Jews. It's not a race and the spirituality in its books was plagiarized by Islam, so I don't see how you as a Muslim can deny Judaism.

Islam plagiarized nothing from Judaism as it got everything from the original source that is G-d.
If the Jews maintain that Abraham was a Jew or Jewish then it is the other-way round in many aspects.
The corrupted Torah is not worthy of it.

Regards

 

[Levite]

You said 'common knowledge', not common knowledge for Jews.

I would hope that anyone who was interested in something having to do with Jews or Jewish history would seek out information from a Jewish source. Much like it would be reasonable to look for information about Christianity from Christians, or Islam from Muslims; or much like one would hopefully find material on English history written by someone English, or information about matters of French society written by someone French (or with equivalent credentials, in either case).

If non-Jews have their own religious theories about the meanings of Judah and Israel, that has nothing to do with Jews, Judaism, or actual Judean or Israelite history or nomenclature.

 

[MD]

Islam plagiarized nothing from Judaism as it got everything from the original source that is G-d.
If the Jews maintain that Abraham was a Jew or Jewish then it is the other-way round in many aspects.
The corrupted Torah is not worthy of it.

Regards

How do you know the Jewish Torah is corrupt? How do you know Mohammed got his word from God and not a Jinn or he didn't hallucinate it up during a series of temporal epilepsies? You don't, so your claims are baseless.

 

[Akivah]

You said 'common knowledge', not common knowledge for Jews.

Have you polled every Jew?

 

[Akivah]

The corrupted Torah is not worthy of it.

Regards

This fictional "corrupted Torah" again?? I thought you were coming here to learn, not to spew your garbage.

 

[Desert Snake]

Have you polled every Jew?

Huh? He said, "common knowledge", I said, 'no not really' (paraphrasing). Your statement makes no sense.

 

[Desert Snake]

I would hope that anyone who was interested in something having to do with Jews or Jewish history would seek out information from a Jewish source. Much like it would be reasonable to look for information about Christianity from Christians, or Islam from Muslims; or much like one would hopefully find material on English history written by someone English, or information about matters of French society written by someone French (or with equivalent credentials, in either case).

If non-Jews have their own religious theories about the meanings of Judah and Israel, that has nothing to do with Jews, Judaism, or actual Judean or Israelite history or nomenclature.

Great, but you didn't specify that.

 

[sun rise]

Let me put the point another way. Can a Muslim be a real Muslim if he does not acknowledge that he's part of the Ummah? And while if you ask 2 Jews to talk about Judaism, you'll get the proverbial three answers, the basic idea is that one cannot separate Jewish from Judaism. This does not stop Jews from debating the existence and policies of modern Israel, of course, along with theology, the applicability of traditional practices to modern life and so forth.

 

[Avi1001]

Hi Folks...this is the most fun we've had on "Avi's" thread so far...and I would love to join in on this brawl D), but I've been called off to a place far away and will be gone for some time....so keep the discussion going as long as you want, and I may return to further stir the bees nest () at some point in the future.

Happy Halloween to all my spooky friends.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Jewish mother passes along Jewish identity. The father passes along tribal identification, as long as the mother is Jewish.

What share does a women get in inheritance as per Torah. Please elaborate.

Regards