Awaiting a false messiah?

[Redemptionsong]

Oh, my mistake. Forgot that people in the Second Temple Era walked around with a spirit-ID-machine.

Well, the people who discerned that John was a prophet did so by the way he behaved, and by the things he said. It should be possible to do the same with Elijah.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

To me, Jesus (a) did a feign death and never died.

There are some early Jewish views that also hold that the real historical Jesus faked his death. Another puts this person about 100 years before the Christian claimed time frame of Jesus. One of the views posits that Paul and his followers were responsible for the super natural elements of the NT story about Jesus and that the real historical Jesus was what we call in Hebrew a (זקן ממרא). Yet, that is only one view.

 

[Link]

There are some early Jewish views that also hold that the real historical Jesus faked his death. Another puts this person about 100 years before the Christian claimed time frame of Jesus. One of the views posits that Paul and his followers were responsible for the super natural elements of the NT story about Jesus and that the real historical Jesus was what we call in Hebrew a (זקן ממרא). Yet, that is only one view.

To me Gospels (not withstanding Paul words) are from God. I for a long time dismissed them and religion even all together, but I can tell now. Some of it might be wrong, but over all it's from God. They weren't inspired like Christians say, it was revealed from God to Jesus to each disciple with a different version and the different versions reinforce each other, same way repeated stories told differently reinforce each other in Quran.

I even believe the so called infancy Gospels to be from God.

In regards to the Knot on Moses' tongue, it's only the Gospels out of all revelations that go all out in talking about the position of God's chosen and anointed in explicit terms with no shying away and with no subtle middle ground.

I believe hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a) often speak the way Jesus (a) spoke about himself. The Gospels are in a way to make way for the hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a) in explaining the revelations and particularly the Quran.

The relationship of God's chosen images and intermediates the Gospels manifests to a high degree. Jesus (a) talks about himself but he is also making way for the exalted ones and Mohammad (s), and also letting people know who David (a), Solomon (a) etc, all were.

The true kings were purified holy souls and instances of the holy spirit. Still most humans are oblivious to their station.

 

[Harel13]

Well, the people who discerned that John was a prophet did so by the way he behaved, and by the things he said. It should be possible to do the same with Elijah.

Josephus writes about the many prophet-claimants during the last decades of the Second Temple. Frankly, acting like a prophet isn't too hard. Nowadays it even has a medical term: Jerusalem Syndrome.

 

[Segev Moran]

Not so, IMO. Visions, and also words of prophecy, were given to Daniel by God. God was revealing things for all men to understand.

It is clearly written that Daniel got the ability to interpret visions and dreams.

Take, for example, the hand that Belshazzar saw write words on the palace wall. When Daniel was called to give an interpretation, it was said of Daniel [Daniel 5:12], 'Forasmuch as an excellent spirit, and knowledge, and understanding, interpreting of dreams, and shewing of hard sentences, and dissolving of doubts, were found in the same Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar:'

He was named Balthazar due to its knowledge of the King's laws.

Was there 'an actual event' associated with Daniel's interpretation? Of course there was! Within a short time, Belshazzar was overthrown by Darius the Mede [Daniel 5:31].

Can you show me any other vision of Daniel that you don't think has an application in reality?[/QUOTE]
I didn't say it doesn't have implications in reality.. The fact is we today witness many predictions that come true.
I said Daniel didn't see actual events per say, rather symbolic representations of them. So the messiah coming down from the clouds doesn't mean the messiah literally comes down from the clouds.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I knew it! I had a feeling that you were going somewhere else with all of this. i.e. I knew you weren't really asking a question.

Going to the Talmud won't help you for one simple reason. You don't agree with the content of the Talmud. You only agree with the parts that you think support your claims about Jesus. You don't agree with the parts that disagree with your beleifs about Jesus. This now explains why you don't want to go by the text of Daniel in Hebrew/Aramaic on its own.

So, to answer your real question. I don't agree with anything that makes a claim to a Christian style messiah. I also know what you think is a source that supports your claim in reality isn't. BTW, the Talmud like Daniel was not written in English either so you really haven't read the Talmud and you don't understand what the statements made in it really mean but that is a different story.



Of course you haven't because we both know you weren't looking for anyone who is Jewish's input to begin with. You may continue with your manifesto. Enjoy.

It's amazing how defensive you have become.

I do agree with the interpretation of the Talmud in relation to the two principal figures in Daniel 7:13,14. One is God, and the other is the one who is anointed to be king.

I asked you to explain, from a Jewish perspective, what you thought Daniel 7:13,14 means. So far, you have not done so.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Josephus writes about the many prophet-claimants during the last decades of the Second Temple. Frankly, acting like a prophet isn't too hard. Nowadays it even has a medical term: Jerusalem Syndrome.

That suggests that Jews are going to find it impossibly hard to recognise the 'son of David'. If you don't have Elijah to point the way, then you only have your religious authorities to tell you who they think is Messiah.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It is clearly written that Daniel got the ability to interpret visions and dreams.

He was named Balthazar due to its knowledge of the King's laws.

Can you show me any other vision of Daniel that you don't think has an application in reality?

Every vision has a meaning, and in many cases the visions are interpreted.

How would you interpret Daniel 7:13,14, if it is symbolic?

 

[Redemptionsong]

To me, Jesus (a) did a feign death and never died, it appeared as if he died, but he came out of the grave in 3 days which means he wasn't actually crucified or killed but appeared that way, and he is just one of the Baqeen from offspring of Noah (a) the Quran talks about. Idris (a) is one, each chosen group of guides has one.

Enoch (a), Jesus (a), Elijah (a), Khidr (a), the 12th Successor (a) of Mohammad (s) are some of the ones we know because we been informed about them in Quran and ahadith and Bible.

The Quran and Bible are probably making the case, that this is normal, and probably the case that every chosen Ahlulbayt has one.

This may mean when Imam Mahdi (a) comes back, there is Jesus (a), Elijah (a) and one from every Ahlulbayt of all people, so you will have Messengers that are ancient like Enoch (a), all doing miracles.

The Quran says "we strengthened them with a third" in Surah Yaseen. In this case, the mursaleen amount is unknown and it can be out every Ahlulbayt (a) will help the final Messenger to mankind, the Mahdi.

They all want God's rules and obedience to one of them is obedience to rest, so they are all Messiahs in this sense that will rule the earth justly. The Mahdi being the main one since that hadiths say even Jesus will pray behind.

This time because there is so many cities and so many humans. He saved the Baqeen (remaining ones) for this.

Some of them are in heaven like Jesus and Enoch, set to return, others on earth still today like Khidr and Elijah. I believe Elijah went to heaven but literally came back during time of Jesus, and while Moses was light - Elijah was actually physically present.

And Elijah (a) took on position of holy spirit between Jesus (a) and Mohammad (s) while Simon (a) was not chosen by God but leadership in the outward was vested to him to some degree (not full out authority like Jesus (a)).

I have discovered that Muslims often adopt a similar attitude to Arabic, as Torah Jews do to Hebrew. The language is presented as a barrier to understanding, and no translation is ever adequate!

Have you ever listened to 'Christian Prince' debating on Youtube? This guy, CP, is fluent in Arabic, and debates with Muslims on a lot of the issues relating to Jesus and the Qur'an, including the crucifixion. They're worth a look.

 

[Harel13]

That suggests that Jews are going to find it impossibly hard to recognise the 'son of David'.

We have a very, very clear way of discerning who the messiah is, so no problem there.

then you only have your religious authorities to tell you who they think is Messiah.

We have the ages-old tradition of what the messiah must do for him to be recognized as such. I think we'll manage even if we don't recognize Elijah. With that said, we also have ways of identifying true prophets. You, on the other hand, appear to have neither. Good luck with that.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I do agree with with the interpretation of the Talmud in relation to the two principal figures in Daniel 7:13,14. One is God, and the other is the one who is anointed to be king.

Oh. So, you agree with only some of the Talmud; the parts that you think support your claim? Do you agree with Talmud Sanhedrin 43a, Sanhedrin 67a, Sanhedrin 107b and Sotah 47a? In not, why not? How do you determine what parts of the Talmud you accept and what parts you don't?

I asked you to explain, from a Jewish perspective, what you thought Daniel 7:13,14 means. So far, you have not done so.

Actually, you asked about a translation not what the actual text says. You also don't want to explain what your definition of some critical terms are. Thus, I sense that you aren't really interested in a Jewish perspective. That may explain your response to every Jew who has answered you thus far.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

FYI to anyone who in the future is reading this post. Literally everything asked here was answered in one form or the other more than 400 years ago. Here are two versions of one of the most famous debates that Jews were forced into.

and here is a more "dramatized" version of the debate.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Oh. So, you agree with only some of the Talmud; the parts that you think support your claim? Do you agree with Talmud Sanhedrin 43a, Sanhedrin 67a, Sanhedrin 107b and Sotah 47a? In not, why not? How do you determine what parts of the Talmud you accept and what parts you don't?



Actually, you asked about a translation not what the actual text says. You also don't want to explain what your definition of some critical terms are. Thus, I sense that you aren't really interested in a Jewish perspective. That may explain your response to every Jew who has answered you thus far.

I asked you to explain the meaning of a passage of scripture. I'm still waiting! It has nothing to do with my understanding of your so-called 'critical terms'.

The Talmud presents discussions on various topics, and, as might be expected, some views I agree with and others I do not. The rabbis did not agree amongst themselves, so why should an outsider be expected to agree with it all?

The point that you have failed to address relates to one specific passage of scripture, Daniel 7:13,14. The two Talmudic references that I made to this passage confirm the view that the 'one like a human being' is a reference to the Messiah, and 'the Ancient of Days' is a reference to God.

Please continue, and give an explanation of the meaning of this passage.

 

[Redemptionsong]

We have a very, very clear way of discerning who the messiah is, so no problem there.

We have the ages-old tradition of what the messiah must do for him to be recognized as such. I think we'll manage even if we don't recognize Elijah. With that said, we also have ways of identifying true prophets. You, on the other hand, appear to have neither. Good luck with that.

If it's really that clear, why does this clarity not shine through in the websites quoted at the start of the thread?

 

[Harel13]

If it's really that clear, why does this clarity not shine through in the websites quoted at the start of the thread?

What do you find unclear? How Daniel 7 fits in with all that? That has been explained to you already on this thread. No point in rehashing.

 

[Segev Moran]

Every vision has a meaning, and in many cases the visions are interpreted.

How would you interpret Daniel 7:13,14, if it is symbolic?

It is not that simple.
You need to read the entire book of Daniel to understand them.
The common interpretation based on the Jewish teachings, is that the messiah will be a human. born and raised as one.
The process of the messiah is not miraculous rather political.
It is believed, that the messiah will be so knowledgeable, that the entire humanity will come to peace under one truth (which makes all religions obsolete).
Only than, the messiah will be revealed as being the messiah.
It is taught, that if someone says, "I am the messiah", it is without a doubt, not the messiah.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I cannot find a Jewish website that does not accept the basic assumption that the descendant of king David is to be born as a human on earth.

This is because the Messiah is a man, not God. He is simply whoever rules Israel during the messianic era.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

IMO, the NT is a spiritual fulfilment of the Hebrew scriptures.

Well, that's where you and Jews disagree. There are many reasons why the NT really has little to do with the Tanakh, beginning with misquoting it, and ending with throwing out the entire basic message of teh Torah, which is that Israel needs to obey the laws given at Sinai.

 

[rational experiences]

Here are a few things published on Jewish websites regarding the expected Messiah.

Aish.com:
'The messiah is a God fearing, pious Jew, who is both a great Torah scholar and a great leader as well. He is a direct descendent of King David, and will be anointed as the new Jewish King. (In fact, the Hebrew word for messiah - "Moshiach" - means "anointed one.").

When the messiah comes, there will be a universal recognition of the truth of Torah and the God Who gave that Torah at Mount Sinai. All Jews will return to the Land of Israel, where they will throw off the yoke of their enemies and undergo a complete spiritual revival. They will embrace the faith of their forefathers and dedicate themselves to God's service forever.

They will re-build the Holy Temple, from where the Divine presence will shine forth, spreading the light of truth, justice, tolerance and peace throughout the world'.

According to chabad.org:
'The Messianic Redemption will be ushered in by a person, a human leader, a descendant of Kings David and Solomon, who will reinstate the Davidic royal dynasty. According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses'.

'The following are the criteria for identifying the Moshiach, as written by Maimonides:

If we see a Jewish leader who (a) toils in the study of Torah and is meticulous about the observance of the mitzvot, (b) influences the Jews to follow the ways of the Torah and (c) wages the "battles of G‑d"—such a person is the "presumptive Moshiach".'

I cannot find a Jewish website that does not accept the basic assumption that the descendant of king David is to be born as a human on earth.

So what's the problem? Well, there's a big difference between the expectation that the Messiah will descend from heaven upon the clouds, and the expectation that the Messiah will be born on earth and rise up through the ranks of humanity.

A further complication arises from those passages of scripture that place the Messiah in heaven. How can the Messiah be in heaven when he is supposed to be born on earth? Is there a resurrection of the Jewish Messiah? Where does that appear in Jewish thinking?

Father said.

The message about brother science satanisms versus natural life with god was always delivered by a man native.

With father was holy mother holy sister holy daughter.

Native American father irradiated murdered.

Not a religious organisation icon.

The American native Indian father used similar church themed teachings yet he is native. I always loved and honoured him spiritually as he told truth.

The native man in life versus organisation rich man factually.

The American Indian depicted huge giant cloud man father images for a long time.

Atlantis earth pyramid science origins was in the American continent historic. Why the seabed owns huge square ground earth radiated cuts. Like a laying of stone. Under the sea.

As they were taught where it happened origin life destruction.

So the American father is not seen anymore in cloud images by cause effect.

Why we all own in spiritual awareness a reverence to his father teachings as it is real.

So Jerusalem was where the Jeru temple pyramid science circuit turned.

First after ice age new science technology.

First was origin. After ice age is secondary.

The science temple not rebuilt in Israel the nuclear power plant and collider now own the status. Temple of science.

Why your status to claim science wisdom by bible is wrong.

As science first was banned.

Then science re emerged as non biblical first.

Why your prophecies no longer match as you also did not allow 2012 earth healing.

Large squares the truth sign. Native father the wisest father.

 

[Etritonakin]

I can't believe I have never considered this question.

I had just assumed that Jews thought the Messiah was "the Lord" -but that they did not believe Christ to be "the Lord" who came first as a man -then will again later in power and glory.

I also had the idea they thought Melchizedek would be the Messiah -not sure why

Scriptures such as Zechariah 14, Joel 2, etc. definitely do not describe a baby who becomes a scholar and leader, etc. -and speak of the Lord.
Perhaps they believe that is God (who Christians refer to as the Father)?

(3 Then the Lord will go out to battle against those nations, waging war as in a day of battle. 4 His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. Then the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a very large valley, with half of the mountain moving toward the north and half toward the south......
16 “It will come about that all of the survivors of the nations who came against Jerusalem will come there from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of the Heavenly Armies, and to observe the Festival of Tents. 17 If anyone from the families of the earth will not come to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of the Heavenly Armies, there will be no rain for them


8Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

[Interesting that this begins with BOTH THE Lord {God} and MY Lord {Melchizedek}... indicating there is one between THE Lord and the psalmist -that one being Melchizedek -a high priest forever -AND A KING WHO WILL DO BATTLE WITH TROOPS ON HIS DAY.... so Melchizedek would rightly be called the "Lord" over the psalmist -but God "THE" Lord over both]
The Lord says to my lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”
2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.b]">[b]
4 The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.


Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And praise be to God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.”

)