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Building Bridges to the Unity of Humanity
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am not debating about things in the Scriptures of 'several religions.' I am only debating about the biblical Scriptures.
If Baha'is debating with Christians are expected to know the Bible then Christians debating with Baha'is should know the Baha'i scriptures, but very few do. The only Christian I know of who has read the Baha'i scriptures is @Brian2.
I am not a nominal Baha'i nor am I inactive. I attend every Feast, which is more than I can say for most Baha'is in my community.
There are probably about 30 Baha'is in my community but rarely do more than 10 or 15 attend Feast, and only a handful attend every Feast like I do.
Whether a Baha'i is inactive or not has NOTHING to do with whether or not they know the writings of Baha'u'llah in an in depth way.
Likewise, a Christian who never goes to church could know the Bible very well.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
That's the thing... They need to discuss them. They need to make the connections. They need to show that their prophet was indeed mentioned in the prophecies of all the other religions.
And again, I'm far from being a religious scholar, yet I find problems with their interpretations. They seem cherry picked and completely out of context.
Like making Assyria to mean Persia, because a couple of thousand years ago Assyria conquered Persia? That the Messiah will come from Elam? Which is now part of Iran, which was Persia? And their prophet came from Persia?
Fine, but does the NT say that it won't be Jesus returning, but another man, a man from Persia. And, they do find a verses here and there that they can pretend fits their story. But then they have to add the return of Krishna and Buddha. What are the prophecies that have them coming from Persia?
But I have no doubt that they can dig up something. But if it's as flaky as the ones that have Christ coming from Persia, then I find it highly questionable on how much they can be trusted. And if I don't feel comfortable trusting them with those claims, how and why should I trust anything they say?
Yet, I'm still listening... and questioning them. And still waiting for more substantial answers. I was gullible enough once to believe what Baha'is told me, and was close to joining them... but not again. They have to prove themselves this time.
The flowery language doesn't impress me. What is the plan? What are the details? If they expect people to fill in the details and make it work, then I don't have much confidence in their plan.
McBell
Unbound
Fair enough.
Balthazzar
N. Germanic Descent
I was informed they were suggesting bridging the divides between nations for the intent of peaceful relations, although how this is to be accomplished is left a vague concept. I suggested I would resist effort to limit our rights as a people in the United States, established in our constitution and our bill of rights. We should retain the right to self-govern ourselves ... for better or worse. What this might look like in the future is anyone's guess, but it appears that Louisiana may be attempting to establish their own sovereignty as a state under federal law as it would apply to that state's sovereignty, and I would think within the sphere of federally regulated entities rights to do so, proclaiming the right to assemble and self-govern as its own sovereign entity, among the many other entities that have done this very thing around the world. This to me doesn't sound terrible, but it faces resistance from other areas due to most of us still living under a less inclusive system of democracy, and fear of state majority winning out. This is my understanding, although I am not privy to the details.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Ironically, this OP is about building bridges.
I do know some, what I call, liberal Baha'is that do respect people in the other religions a little deeper. But even then, it usually with liberal people in those other religions, not like a Fundamentalist Christian.
But I think that some Baha'is are so staunch in their beliefs that they are just as bad as any Fundy Christian. My Baha'is friends were on that liberal side. And it seemed to me that those Baha'is in leadership positions were more conservative.
Here in the forum, if a Baha'i is going to put their beliefs out there as The Truth... that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, they already made a few enemies with lots of Christians.
Then if they start a thread about God being real, they've already made enemies of lots of Atheists. And they've already done both those things.
How do they go back now and say, "Hey, were all just people. Sure, we have our differences, but can we be friends?"
For me, that's still a problem, because what is the motive? I've fallen for that before. Proselytizing religions start with being "friends". Then, slowly, start the preaching and indoctrination into the beliefs about their religion and the things wrong with the other person's religion.
For a Christian or a Baha'i or anyone, for them, their motive is "love". They care about those poor lost souls so much they want to lead them into the truth. One tries to get them saved. The other tries to get them to join the religion and work for bringing peace to the world.
They both sound pretty good. But they each take people in very different directions. If a person gets saved, part of that includes believing that some like Baha'u'llah, who claims to be the return of Christ, is a false prophet.
If a person joins the Baha'i Faith, they are taught that Jesus is not God and he is not the "only" way. We are all essentially "saved". Because, for Baha'is, there is no hell. We all go to be with God... it's just that those better, more spiritual people, will be closer to God.
Christian issues such as the Trinity and Resurrection and the divinity of Christ have absorbed humanity from kings to beggars for two thousand years. They have inspired the greatest art and literature and philosophy and engaged the greatest minds through history.
A couple of internet posters equipped with Wikipedia and Google aren't going to just come along and knock it all down to prop up the claims of their own new age or fundamentalist ideas and teachers
I don't apply this to posters on this thread however
A couple of internet posters equipped with Wikipedia and Google aren't going to just come along and knock it all down to prop up the claims of their own new age or fundamentalist ideas and teachers
I don't apply this to posters on this thread however
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Still going negative CG.
All the best CG, the world is changing fast now. It appears the 12th hour is approaching.
Regards Tony
Verse 24 could have interesting implications.
I see 4 Manifestations have given Messages since this prophecy and could be reflected in the verse.
"...Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished and rose up in haste. He declared to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the fire?” They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.” 25 He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.”
The first 3 might be Jesus, Muhammad and the Bab, the 4th Baha'u'llah. (I offer this as I have some insights from the Baha'i Writings, but have absolutely no authority of interpretation)
Regards Tony
Balthazzar
N. Germanic Descent
The earth we live upon and the sun we revolve around, represents one body of the many other heavenly bodies that have a place in the heavens. I prefer to acknowledge these men: Jesus, Bahaullah, Plato, Socrates, Newton, Einstein, and those like them as master teachers. This is due to the monumental impact they have had on our collective understanding of life and our place in it. The sun, specifically is what I choose to acknowledge to be that fire alluded to in the lyrics posted, as well as the furnace Nebuchadnezzar may have been able to manipulate, although this is speculation, the moral itself one alluding to our heliosphere, and also mentioned as (hell) a place of torment and refinement where we are developed into people able to offer right gifts, gifts of truth to all. Malachi 3 reference.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, Baha'is do not 'need' any of that. How many regular Baha'is do you see on this forum?
I know I do not need to convince anyone of my beliefs, nor do I want to, because Baha'u'llah wrote that the faith of no man should be conditioned by anyone except himself.
Why would I need to convince others of what I know is true? Baha'u'llah wrote that on judgment day we will only responsible for our own beliefs.
We can agree that the Bible holds many secrets of wisdom contained within the words. We just disagree on those meanings. But the context of the passages is the best guide. I believe it would be greatly wrong to try to shake anyone's faith. Only God can guide a person, and God guides every individual person in their own individual way.
Of course this would apply if a Christian was debating with a Baha’i about Baha’i scriptures. It doesn’t apply where Christians are debating with Baha’i or Muslims about Christian scriptures.
I only hope that a person who spends a lot of time discussing the Christian scriptures, and who admits that she prays to Jesus, not to Baha’u’llah, might find the time to read the Christian scriptures for the subtlety of context that reveals their inner meaning on ever deeper levels.
@Trailblazer
I respect the sincerity of your belief and your devotion to God. I wish you well and do not want to get drawn into acrimonious arguments. I apologize where this has happened.
Sorry if all that sounds pompous
“You are right from your side, and I am right from mine. We’re just one too many mornings, and a thousand miles behind”
Bob Dylan
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But you are taking one verse completely out of context, again, as usual.
Why do you do this?
Daniel 3:8-25
The chapter gives their names as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. It says they were Jews serving under the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar. The fourth figure is not named, but in context appears to be a protecting angel.
The Bab and Muhammad were not Jews. Jesus was not in physical existence at the time of Nebuchadnezzar.
And the Book of Daniel is generally agreed to be a late book, written during the Greek Macabean period of Jewish history, as a parable, in the nature of apocryphal writing, although one doesn't have to accept this.
But it does not justify changing everything the passage says about them, including their names. If you can do that with the Bible, you can make it say anything you want it to?
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, we can agree that the Bible holds many secrets of wisdom. I do not think we disagree on 'all' the meanings, just some of them.
Yes, the context of the passages is a good guide to the meaning, but I don't think the context is always going to lead to the correct meaning.
Regarding the meanings of verses, they can have more than one meaning, and more than one meaning can be correct. So how do you think we can know which meanings are correct?
“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”
The problem as I see it is that no interpreter for the Bible was appointed by God , so everyone was left on their own to figure out what the verses mean. Even Christians do not agree on the meanings of many verses. As I am often asking Christians, how do you know that 'your interpretation' is any more correct than the interpretation of another Christian?
In the passage above I think that Baha’u’llah was referring to the Bible as the Word of God. What Baha’u’llah was saying in that passage is that the biblical scriptures can have many different, but the Representative of God and His appointed interpreters are the only ones who have the authority to interpret the scriptures, so they are the final authorities on the meaning and whatever meaning they assign should not be questioned.
I believe that the Representative of God for this age is Baha'u'llah, and Abdu'l-Baha was Baha'u'llah's appointed interpreter.
Jesus was also the Representative of God but He did not write any scriptures, let alone interpret them, nor did He assign an interpreter, so everyone was free to interpret them as they chose to. Most Christians deferred to the Church as the authority and simply accepted the commonly held doctrines of the Church, but there is more than one Church so Christians hold different beliefs.
I agree that it is wrong to try to shake anyone's faith and that only God can guide a person.
"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
I understand that perspective, but in light of the fact that nobody in Christianity was given any authority by God to interpret the Bible, Christians ended up believing the interpretations of their respective Churches, who were not given any authority by God to interpret the Bible.
Misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Christians disagreed as to what the Bible meant and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. I believe that Christians have misinterpreted much of the Bible because they did not have the key to unlock the meaning, and that is understandable because it was prophesied in Daniel 12 that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end.
Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
I believe that this chapter is about what will happen at the time of the end, when Christ returns, and that unsealing the Book means we can now understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before, by reading the Baha’i Writings, thus fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 12:4 that knowledge shall be increased.
As I said before, maybe someday I will read the Bible when I have time, but as a Baha'i, I think I should read the Qur'an before I read the Bible.
I also respect your sincerity and I don't like acrimonious arguments. Somewhere Baha'u'llah said that if two people argue they are both wrong.
No, it did not sound that way.
Ah yes. The experience may be a bit different from what you expect
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Thanks for the heads-up.
Balthazzar
N. Germanic Descent
Where two or three are gathered in my name, there "I am" is in the midst of them.
Matthew 18:20
Exodus 3:14
That's Prophecy. The signs are inserted into the texts and are timeless.
Every passage of Scripture has many meanings.
That is our quandary, how willing are we to explore all the wisdom contained in just a single letter.
The letters B & E were joined and knit together by God and we have creation, look what is in just those two Letters. The word sun has unlimited meanings. At one time, Bahá'u'lláh gave in detail, in response to a questioner, several meanings pertaining to the word 'sun', adding that this word has so many other meanings that if ten secretaries were to record His explanations for a period of one or two years, He would still not exhaust its significance.
We close our minds to what God gives us.
Regards Tony
Abdul'baha gave us a thought on this in His interpretation of Revelation and that Muhammad and Ali were clothed in Sackcloth. So when you read the Quran you will read simular verses like Torah based Law and when you read the Old Testament, it is also a challenge.Thanks for the heads-up.
"...Now, Muḥammad was the root and ‘Alí the branch, like Moses and Joshua. It is said they were “clothed in sackcloth”, meaning that they appeared to wear not a new raiment but an old one. In other words, they would initially appear to be of no consequence in the eyes of other peoples and their Cause would not seem new. For the spiritual principles of the religion of Muḥammad correspond to those of Christ in the Gospel, and His material commandments correspond for the most part to those of the Torah. This is the symbolism of the old raiment..."
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library
A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.
Regards Tony
No it's not.You can't just make it up by changing the words and the names and the times and the context and ignoring the previous and following verses and chapters to make it say what you want it to, lol
God gave us common sense too.
Have you read the Quran? Which English translation do you prefer?Abdul'baha gave us a thought on this in His interpretation of Revelation and that Muhammad and Ali were clothed in Sackcloth. So when you read the Quran you will read simular verses like Torah based Law and when you read the Old Testament, it is also a challenge.
"...Now, Muḥammad was the root and ‘Alí the branch, like Moses and Joshua. It is said they were “clothed in sackcloth”, meaning that they appeared to wear not a new raiment but an old one. In other words, they would initially appear to be of no consequence in the eyes of other peoples and their Cause would not seem new. For the spiritual principles of the religion of Muḥammad correspond to those of Christ in the Gospel, and His material commandments correspond for the most part to those of the Torah. This is the symbolism of the old raiment..."
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library
A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.www.bahai.org
Regards Tony