Building Bridges to the Unity of Humanity

[TransmutingSoul]

No it's not.You can't just make it up by changing the words and the names and the times and the context and ignoring the previous and following verses and chapters to make it say what you want it to, lol

I have a differnt opinion as I am aware of what Baha'u'llah has offered.

We also now have examples of this in the Baha'i Writings as well.

In Tablets addressing all the rulers, clergy and peoples of earth, we find in each of the individual Message given to them, Laws for the age, we find prophecy given and many other subjects are broached.

God gave us common sense too.

In the response given above, I am able to use good, sound common sense to see this in other scriptures, as it is all God's Word.

Have you read the Quran? Which English translation do you prefer?

Yes, I used the Abdullah Yusuf Ali Quran English Translation.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

No it's not.You can't just make it up by changing the words and the names and the times and the context and ignoring the previous and following verses and chapters to make it say what you want it to, lol

No, prophecies are not timeless. I read that whole chapter and in my opinion it is referring to people who lived back when it was written.
Some Baha'is want everything to be about Baha'u'llah but I cannot see how it could possibly be a prophecy related to the coming of Baha'u'llah.

 

[Sumadji]

the Abdullah Yusuf Ali Quran English Translation.

I'll look for it

I read the Arthur J Arberry translation, but it was difficult, word for word, and not much explanation or background.

I'm reading the MAS Addul Haherm Oxford translation now, not all at once, no hurry with it, and it's much more explanatory. I would recommend it to first time English readers

I read through the Bible slowly, over years a bit now and then, am reading Job at present, nearly finished. Not the first time, of course Also other books. I read on the bus, all sorts of books. I'm reading Steinbeck short stories at the moment, really great writing

(edited to add)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, prophecies are not timeless. I read that whole chapter and in my opinion it is referring to people who lived back when it was written.
Some Baha'is want everything to be about Baha'u'llah but I cannot see how it could possibly be a prophecy related to the coming of Baha'u'llah.

That is why we have no Authority of Interpretation, your response a great example of why we have not got that authority, the unity of the Faith would soon be rendered erroneous.

I offered in the post that it was what I found interesting, not that it was a fact and that it was my thoughts.

I see it differently and no one can say what I see is wrong or right, as I do not even take that stance, I did not state that as fact.

What I will state, is that Prophecy is timeless.

Baha'u'llah is the one promised by all religions, he has fulfilled all their prophecies, yet many are still to become manifested.

Great examples.

Thy Kingdom Come, thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven, is the Kingdom every Messenger brings, and yet it seems to never come.

The One fold and One shepherd, still yet to come, yet every Messenger brings this exact same opportunity.

This is explaind in the Kitab-i-iqan.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

What I will state, is that Prophecy is timeless.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you explain what you mean by that?

I mean that prophecy appears in the Words of God without us even seing it is foretelling of Gods Messengers from the first Messenger to the Last Messenger it spans from the beginning until the end.

Example from the Bible quoted by Baha'u'llah.

"...In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself.

Thus that Passage when uttered in the day of Isaiah had already reflected the message of Bahá'u'lláh and the "Day of God", yet we will not see that written in that verse.

Abdul'baha was given such vision, that is why his explanations are truly eye opening, we get to see what passages are offering, in a way no one else has interpreted them.

Thus I see that all through the scriptures are found these same illusions to all the Messengers. A passage from Baha'u'llah to consider is that "...The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation.."

Sorry, busy, I get trains of thought, get called away, come back an have forgotten what I was pursuing in answer to you.

Regards Tony

 

[Ponder This]

That is imputing your thoughts on to me, the plan does not fail, it is humanity and peace that fails if disarmament does not happen.

Regards Tony

Yeah, if two people have a major disagreement and are ready to fight about it, what is the first step in a Baha'i type of plan? Get them to disarm... take away their guns. Hmmm? They still have knives. Take them away two. It gets down to their fists. Tie their hands behind their backs. They can still kick. Tie their feet together. They can still butt their heads together, Strap them down, so they can't move.

Now that they can't physically hurt each other, in the Baha'i plan, we have the Supreme Tribunal. They hear the case and decide. The two people have agreed to abide by the decision. Should they be untied?

But how do we tie a nation down? And in the Baha'i plan, if any nation refuses to abide by the rules and decisions of the Tribunal, all the other nations are supposed to rise up and stop them. That sounds like uses force. And if they are going to use weapons to force that nation to abide by the rules and decisions of the Tribunal, how is that different than a war?

But, like I said, the Baha'is say this plan came from God himself, so I'm sure God knows what he's doing. And we can trust the Baha'is, right? Like when has any other religion steered as wrong?

I think the issue here is weapons, including weapons of mass destruction, can't be uninvented. If @TransmutingSoul were talking about the internal transformation of people, then it wouldn't matter that internally transformed people have access to weapons, as such people would be guaranteed to be personally responsible, developed, mature, peaceful souls. By instead making disarmament a prerequisite to peace, peace become unachievable.

Another way to look at this is to start to talk about what a weapon is... @CG Didymus points out people can use their hands as weapons. And I would add that removing people's hands sounds like a horrible tragedy as opposed to sounding like peace. Moreover, anything that you can think of can be used as a weapon. A nuclear reactor is just another form of nuclear bomb. The fire that heats your stove can burn your house down. You can drown in your bathtub.

What does the proposed plan say about transforming people? As far as I could tell, @TransmutingSoul is saying that people are going to have to do horrible things to each other. I would say that's a plan for war - not peace.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What does the proposed plan say about transforming people? As far as I could tell, @TransmutingSoul is saying that people are going to have to do horrible things to each other. I would say that's a plan for war - not peace.

I see that as a very good example of attributing other people's choices, inserting an intent into another person's post, and then twisting it to suit another agenda.

What people are doing to each other is a result of not addressing the points that are offered in the plan, such as this extract.

"....Whether peace is to be reached only after unimaginable horrors precipitated by humanity’s stubborn clinging to old patterns of behaviour, or is to be embraced now by an act of consultative will, is the choice before all who inhabit the earth. At this critical juncture when the intractable problems confronting nations have been fused into one common concern for the whole world, failure to stem the tide of conflict and disorder would be unconscionably irresponsible..."

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I mean that prophecy appears in the Words of God without us even seing it is foretelling of Gods Messengers from the first Messenger to the Last Messenger it spans from the beginning until the end.

So you think that everything that is written the Old Testament is a Bible prophecy foretelling of Gods Messengers?
I see no foretelling of a Messenger in the following verses.

Daniel 3:8-25
New International Version

8 At this time some astrologers[a] came forward and denounced the Jews. 9 They said to King Nebuchadnezzar, “May the king live forever! 10 Your Majesty has issued a decree that everyone who hears the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music must fall down and worship the image of gold, 11 and that whoever does not fall down and worship will be thrown into a blazing furnace. 12 But there are some Jews whom you have set over the affairs of the province of Babylon—Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego—who pay no attention to you, Your Majesty. They neither serve your gods nor worship the image of gold you have set up.”

13 Furious with rage, Nebuchadnezzar summoned Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. So these men were brought before the king, 14 and Nebuchadnezzar said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the image of gold I have set up? 15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?”

16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[b] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”

19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace.

24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?”
They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.”

25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

Read full chapter

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So you think that everything that is written the Old Testament is a Bible prophecy foretelling of Gods Messengers?
I see no foretelling of a Messenger in the following verses.

Daniel 3:8-25
New International Version

8 At this time some astrologers[a] came forward and denounced the Jews. 9 They said to King Nebuchadnezzar, “May the king live forever! 10 Your Majesty has issued a decree that everyone who hears the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music must fall down and worship the image of gold, 11 and that whoever does not fall down and worship will be thrown into a blazing furnace. 12 But there are some Jews whom you have set over the affairs of the province of Babylon—Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego—who pay no attention to you, Your Majesty. They neither serve your gods nor worship the image of gold you have set up.”

13 Furious with rage, Nebuchadnezzar summoned Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. So these men were brought before the king, 14 and Nebuchadnezzar said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the image of gold I have set up? 15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?”

16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[b] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”

19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace.

24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?”
They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.”

25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”
Read full chapter

Interesting stuff in there about worshipping Idols or God, and everything written brings us back to the causes given by God.

Thus all letters, words, sentences, paragraphs,chapters and books will have great significant in prophecy

"He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual" I see this has significance beyond the obvious story being told as seven times has also many prophecy references.

"I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed" To me, from what I understand the Writings offer, is that the only people that are unbound and unharmed are the Messengers from God, no matter what we do to them. Thus the story being told, apart from the external meaning, has other deeper meanings.

Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha have offered there interpretationof a passage, then say search for other meanings so that the mysteries of God are made manifest to our own selves. (In one way or another, would have to look for my minds source quotes)

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Still going negative CG.

No, that was being sarcastic, because you didn't supply any answers but deferred to her. As if what she says has any authority. I don't think Baha'is can support any of the verses they use if they are taken in context. And I think that, because Baha'is never try to see what the context was.

Like Micah 7:12... What is he talking about in the rest of the verses and chapters? How do you justify taking a verse here and verse there and making those verses prophecies about your prophet? Oh, and Bill Sears is not Baha'u'llah nor Abdul Baha'. But some Baha'is seem to think what he says is authoritative.

 

[CG Didymus]

Abdul'baha gave us a thought on this in His interpretation of Revelation and that Muhammad and Ali were clothed in Sackcloth.

...Now, Muḥammad was the root and ‘Alí the branch, like Moses and Joshua. It is said they were “clothed in sackcloth”, meaning that they appeared to wear not a new raiment but an old one.

Here's some information about "sackcloth"....

"Sackcloth, usually made of black goat hair, was used by the Israelites and their neighbors in times of mourning or social protest."​

As garment​

Sackcloth came to mean a garment, too, made from such cloth, which was worn as a token of mourning by the Israelites. It was also a sign of submission (1 Kings 20:31–32), or of grief and self-humiliation (2 Kings 19:1),[7] and was occasionally worn by the Prophets.[8] It is often associated with ashes.​

​

I don't think Abdul Baha' is interpreting "sackcloth" correctly, but making something up to make it fit his interpretation.

I'm sure there were lots of poor people in Israel that didn't have "new" raiment... but old. I wonder if it was ever made of sackcloth.... unless they were in mourning. And poor or rich, people would know why they were wearing sackcloth.

But, I know, since Abdul Baha' said it... that's what it meant... wearing old clothes.

 

[Sumadji]

Bahá'u'lláh gave in detail, in response to a questioner, several meanings pertaining to the word 'sun', adding that this word has so many other meanings that if ten secretaries were to record His explanations for a period of one or two years, He would still not exhaust its significance.

of course the word sun can be used to mean different things. But the particular intended meaning of the word sun is taken from the context in which it is used at the time. That is common sense.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have some insights from the Baha'i Writings, but have absolutely no authority of interpretation)

And considering I find flaw with Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha' s interpretation, you can imagine how far out there I see your interpretation.

No it's not.You can't just make it up by changing the words and the names and the times and the context and ignoring the previous and following verses and chapters to make it say what you want it to, lol

Yes, there are verses that are clearly prophecies. Like when it says, "Thus says the Lord..." Or... "It shall come to pass..."

I mean that prophecy appears in the Words of God without us even seing it is foretelling of Gods Messengers from the first Messenger to the Last Messenger it spans from the beginning until the end.

In one of the rare times... I agree with Trailblazer.

The story is told as if it was a real event. Because it is so unlikely to have been a real event, my interpretation is that is a made up, embellished story to get the Jewish people to be faithful to their God and to trust and obey him.

And technically, we don't know how many manifestations there's been since then. Maybe a messenger to the Native Americans? Maybe to the people in China? Or Africa?

An interpretation like yours, I'm sure, is impressive to some Baha'is. But what are non-Baha'is going to think of it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

An interpretation like yours, I'm sure, is impressive to some Baha'is. But what are non-Baha'is going to think of it?

I do not at all worry about what anyone may think CG. No one discussed it, so I will not.

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not at all worry about what anyone may think CG. No one discussed it, so I will not.

All the best, Regards Tony

But you should be, because you are representing the Baha'i Faith here.

You can turn a person on to it, or push a person away from wanting to investigate it. To interpret a story about Daniels' friends being thrown into a furnace to be a prophecy about Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah can look a little extreme.

Like how did you even come up with that? A vision of Abdul Baha'? Or his voice coming into your head? Or... all on your own?

And how about other Baha'is... How many have you told? Do worry about what they think?

What am I thinking. This is actually awesome and very typical Baha'i interpretation.... Like when Abdul Baha sees three "woes" in the Book of Revelation and thinks. "Ah, that must Muhammad, the Bab and my dad, Baha'u'llah."

Yeah, never mind... Keep going with it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But you should be, because you are representing the Baha'i Faith here

No, they represented my views, which you asked for.

I will now go back to quotes only.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

"I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed" To me, from what I understand the Writings offer, is that the only people that are unbound and unharmed are the Messengers from God, no matter what we do to them. Thus the story being told, apart from the external meaning, has other deeper meanings.

Yes, that is true

Levels of meaning. It is the nature of scripture

The Book of Daniel will always be open to interpretation. The Baha'i aren't the first and will not be the last to draw their own meanings.

Lectio Divina

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think the issue here is weapons, including weapons of mass destruction, can't be uninvented. If @TransmutingSoul were talking about the internal transformation of people, then it wouldn't matter that internally transformed people have access to weapons, as such people would be guaranteed to be personally responsible, developed, mature, peaceful souls. By instead making disarmament a prerequisite to peace, peace become unachievable.

Another way to look at this is to start to talk about what a weapon is... @CG Didymus points out people can use their hands as weapons. And I would add that removing people's hands sounds like a horrible tragedy as opposed to sounding like peace. Moreover, anything that you can think of can be used as a weapon. A nuclear reactor is just another form of nuclear bomb. The fire that heats your stove can burn your house down. You can drown in your bathtub.

What does the proposed plan say about transforming people? As far as I could tell, @TransmutingSoul is saying that people are going to have to do horrible things to each other. I would say that's a plan for war - not peace.

I think with weapons like nukes and such, the way the world will agree to disarm won’t be because they have all become spiritual which is highly unlikely, but that these weapons will be used and many cities will be destroyed which will trigger a worldwide earthquake where even more major cities are turned to dust. Everyone will be a huge loser. Billions will die.I believe under such circumstances an understanding would be quickly reached to get rid of them and the law of collective security be enforced worldwide so that if anyone tries to manufacture again, the world will unite and destroy that government.

I believe world disarmament will not be a gesture of goodwill but a matter of our very survival. This is the only real scenario I see world disarmament taking place.

 

[Sumadji]

I think with weapons like nukes and such, the way the world will agree to disarm won’t be because they have all become spiritual which is highly unlikely, but that these weapons will be used and many cities will be destroyed which will trigger a worldwide earthquake where even more major cities are turned to dust. Everyone will be a huge loser. Billions will die.I believe under such circumstances an understanding would be quickly reached to get rid of them and the law of collective security be enforced worldwide so that if anyone tries to manufacture again, the world will unite and destroy that government.

I believe world disarmament will not be a gesture of goodwill but a matter of our very survival. This is the only real scenario I see world disarmament taking place.

It's Malthusian socio-political projection, imo. Perhaps the outcome of 21st Century global overpopulation, but nothing to do with messengers or religion? It doesn't take the latest manifestation of God to lay it out?

Whatever happens it's not going to be the Baha'i universal house of justice with Baha'u'llah replacing Jesus and other word religions for the millennium until the next new messenger comes along, imo