I could give my opinion, but how would that help you make your own mind up on those questions? Any attempt I make at giving my thoughts to you, are likewise questioned and even backhanded.
Regards Tony
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Building Bridges to the Unity of Humanity
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
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Regards Tony
Change first must be seen as needed.
That first hidden word seems to be the key, it is followed by what I see is also equally as important, I see reading the first 5 or 6 one after the other gives us a path.
1 "O Son of Spirit!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting."
2 "O Son of Spirit!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes."
3."O Son of Man!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty."
4. "O Son of Man!
I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life."
5. "O Son of Being!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant."....
Regards Tony
Ok. I'm going to ask you to post that paragraph on Google search yourself and see what comes up. It is mentioned scores of times.
AI says:
The Quran says that on the Day of Judgement, all people who have ever lived will be resurrected from the dead and judged by Allah. The Quran describes the Day of Judgement as a time when people will be called to account for their deeds and faith during their lives on Earth. Allah will weigh each person's deeds and decide whether they will spend eternity in Jannah (Paradise) or Jahannam (Hellfire).
The Day of Judgement is a fundamental tenet of faith for Muslims and is considered one of the six articles of Islamic faith. The Quran and the Hadith (sayings of Muhammad) provide details about the trials and tribulations associated with the Day of Judgement.
Here is just one passage at random. There are many more. The Quran insists that the resurrection on the last day is of the flesh
It runs like a thread through every chapter of the Quran
(To the best of my knowledge and open to correction)
There are many graphic descriptions of heaven and hell
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It needs explanation.
Does not the fact of accepting the divine origin of both Jesus and Muhammad mean that their teachings become binding upon the one who accepts them? If I accept Muhammad (pbuh) as of divine origin, or rather that his teachings are of divine origin given directly from Allah, then I need to believe what he writes in the Quran about monastics and the Trinity and the Resurrection of Christ, about divorce, the role of women, the guaranteed entrance of Jihaadi warriors to heaven, and so on? Where that differs with what my belief in the divine origin of Jesus says, it means I should prefer the divine origin of Muhammad's teachings now instead -- progressive revelation.
But there isn't a middle way. The Pope or any other person cannot hold Catholic Christian beliefs in the divine origin of Jesus and also share Muslim beliefs about the divine origin of Muhammad. Or of Muhammad's teachings. It's riding two horses. It's never going to work.
Muslims get around it by saying that the Tanakh and the NT are both corrupted from their original form.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'is also believe in a Day of Judgment, but it is not the same belief that Christians and Muslims have.
| The Day of Judgment |
| Christ spoke much in parables about a great Day of Judgment when “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father … and … shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. xvi, 27). He compares this Day to the time of harvest, when the tares are burned and the wheat gathered into barns:— |
| … so shall it be in the end of this world [consummation of the age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.—Matt. xiii, 40–43. |
| The phrase “end of the world” used in the Authorized Version of the Bible in this and similar passages has led many to suppose that when the Day of Judgment comes, the earth will suddenly be destroyed, but this is evidently a mistake. The true translation of the phrase appears to be “the consummation or end of the age.” Christ teaches that the Kingdom of the Father is to be established on earth, as well as in heaven. He teaches us to pray: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” In the parable of the Vineyard, when the Father, the Lord of the Vineyard, comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen, He does not destroy the vineyard (the world) also, but lets it out to other husbandmen, who will render Him the fruits in their season. The earth is not to be destroyed, but to be renewed and regenerated. Christ speaks of that day on another occasion as “the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” St. Peter speaks of it as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” The Day of Judgment of which Christ speaks is evidently identical with the coming of the Lord of Hosts, the Father, which was prophesied by Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets; a time of terrible punishment for the wicked, but a time in which justice shall be established and righteousness rule, on earth as in heaven. |
| In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muḥammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity. |
Verses about the resurrection are open to interpretation, just like Bible verses.
'Allah will raise those who are in the graves' does not necessarily mean rising from physical graves.
Won’t the Dead Rise Again?
If Christ’s resurrection is a spiritual one, then so must ours be. Paul makes this exact point when he compares the “first Adam” with “the last Adam”.
bahaiteachings.org
These are also open to interpretation and may be figurative rather than literal.
If Muslims want to interpret them literally, that is their choice.
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Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
That's if you believe in the dogma created by the followers of Jesus and Muhammad. I don't.
Others don't believe in the Baha'i dogmas. You do. That's fine. But why should everybody else have to drop what they believe because you think they should?
I sense this goes nowhere
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
@Truthseeker said: That's if you believe in the dogma created by the followers of Jesus and Muhammad. I don't.
Why do you think that he thinks that everybody else should drop what they believe because he thinks they should?
He never said that.
Well it appears that the Pope does not want nor initiate war and is still a Catholic. The Pope can meet with people of all faiths and share the Love of God with them.
So what's the problem? We are all human, we all get the same chances in choosing and living Faith, or no faith.
Maybe you could read how, or ask the Pope how he does it?
As a Baha'i I can love all God given Faith in the same light as mine, acknowledging their divine origins.
In the end it is about being a Lover of the Light from wherever it shines, that is what Jesus asked of us, to find the good in all things and hold fast to it.
Regards Tony
Probably because he does not get sidetracked into online threads originated by Muslims and others about the resurrection and the trinity and the divinity of Christ and the deception of Paul, and all the other tiresome grooves?
That also does not have to prevent anyone from embracing Love and the Oneness of humanity, in all its diversity.
Clashes of differing opinions can direct us towards the Truth, in proportion to our willingness to listen and adapt our understanding accordingly.
That is the quandary of Faith, but also the bounty, as we can appreciate everyone has the same choices laid out in front of them.
Some are just yet to hear the differnt frames of references.
You have my Love and forever peace. (Well I am yet tested by war, and did serve 3 years in the Australian Armed Forces)
Regards Tony
I probably shouldn't speak on behalf of @Sumadji But it just looks like poor word choice to me. @Truthseeker may or may not believe we should all accept the divine origins of Jesus, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah but Abdul-Baha very clearly did in my view.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not know what Abdu'l-Baha said that got all this started, but I don't go by what he says we should accept.
I only God by what Baha'u'llah says we should accept.
Baha'u'llah wrote "For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”
To me that means that each one of us should decide for ourselves what we are to believe.
I posted this talk in another OP, but it is also applicable to your comment and this OP
Abdul'baha spoke to the San Franciscan Jewish community in 1912. His astounding questions, frank and courageous talk now reflect a neglect that is manifesting in events we now face in this age. This is a truly powerful talk supporting this OP.
Abdul Baha speaks at Temple Emmanuel, 1912:
"Today the Christians are believers in Moses, accept Him as a Prophet of God and praise Him most highly. The Muslims are, likewise, believers in Moses, accept the validity of His Prophethood, at the same time believing in Christ. Could it be said that the acceptance of Moses by the Christians and Muslims has been harmful and detrimental to those people? On the contrary, it has been beneficial to them, proving that they have been fair-minded and just. What harm could result to the Jewish people, then, if they in return should accept Christ and acknowledge the validity of the Prophethood of Muḥammad? By this acceptance and praiseworthy attitude the enmity and hatred which have afflicted mankind so many centuries would be dispelled, fanaticism and bloodshed pass away and the world be blessed by unity and agreement. Christians and Muslims believe and admit that Moses was the Interlocutor of God. Why do you not say that Christ was the Word of God? Why do you not speak these few words that will do away with all this difficulty? Then there will be no more hatred and fanaticism, no more warfare and bloodshed in the Land of Promise. Then there will be peace among you forever.
Verily, I now declare to you that Moses was the Interlocutor of God and a most noteworthy Prophet, that Moses revealed the fundamental law of God and founded the real ethical basis of the civilization and progress of humanity. What harm is there in this? Have I lost anything by saying this to you and believing it as a Bahá'í? On the contrary, it benefits me; and Bahá'u'lláh, the Founder of the Bahá'í Movement, confirms me, saying, "You have been fair and just in your judgment; you have impartially investigated the truth and arrived at a true conclusion; you have announced your belief in Moses, a Prophet of God, and accepted the Torah, the Book of God." Inasmuch as it is possible for me to sweep away all evidences of prejudice by such a liberal and universal statement of belief, why is it not possible for you to do likewise? Why not put an end to this religious strife and establish a bond of connection between the hearts of men? Why should not the followers of one religion praise the Founder or Teacher of another? The other religionists extol the greatness of Moses and admit that He was the Founder of Judaism. Why do the Hebrews refuse to praise and accept the other great Messengers Who have appeared in the world? What harm could there be in this? What rightful objection? None whatever. You would lose nothing by such action and statement. On the contrary, you would contribute to the welfare of mankind. You would be instrumental in establishing the happiness of the world of humanity. The eternal honor of man depends upon the liberalism of this modern age. Inasmuch as our God is one God and the Creator of all mankind, He provides for and protects all. We acknowledge Him as a God of kindness, justice and mercy. Why then should we, His children and followers, war and fight, bringing sorrow and grief into the hearts of each other? God is loving and merciful. His intention in religion has ever been the bond of unity and affinity between humankind."
The Promulgation of Universal Peace | Bahá’í Reference Library
A collection of transcriptions of over one hundred talks delivered by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá during the nine months in 1912 when He travelled across the United States and Canada.www.bahai.org
So easy to build bridges by just changing our own mindset.
Regards Tony
This goes back to the source of the replies.
Regards Tony
Well I think Abdul-Baha would at least nominally agree to what you have quoted of Baha'u'llah, and I suppose in a 17 page thread not everyone who comes in halfway will be familiar with the context of a reply, so I don't blame you for not knowing.
FYI the context was in post #283 where Abdul-Baha gives a talk to the Jews in which he says amongst other things;
"What harm could result to the Jewish people, then, if they in return should accept Christ and acknowledge the validity of the Prophethood of Muḥammad? By this acceptance and praiseworthy attitude the enmity and hatred which have afflicted mankind so many centuries would be dispelled, fanaticism and bloodshed pass away and the world be blessed by unity and agreement."
There was a lot more but for the sake of brevity you can read post#283 for full context.
P.S looks like Tony reposted above while I was typing.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Of course the Ahmadiyya and Scientologist teach their people to be kind and loving and all that... And they also teach them about things that Baha'is don't believe are true. But so do Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and the rest.
There is common ground there somewhere. But if Baha'is don't even want to reach out to some of those "out there" religious groups, then who will?
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
I don't at all expect them to drop what they believe.
Yes, it always does here.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I remember one about that people are created "noble" and Baha'u'llah then says then why do we "debase" ourselves.
The Baha'i that told me that was using it against the Christian belief that we are born as hopeless sinners until we get "washed" in the blood of Jesus.
From what I remember, the epistles of Paul pretty much supported that. So, the Baha'i belief is way better, but then what do we say to Christians? That Paul was wrong?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The talk was given at a Reformed Jewish Synagogue. I can see how a liberal minded person in any religion in a way "accepts" these other prophets of other religions. But it's the "good stuff" like love they neighbor. Any dogmatic or doctrinal stuff isn't what they care about.
So, I think those people are as close to being Baha'is, without being a Baha'i. And, those that do join the Baha'i Faith find themselves into a religion that is just as full of dogma and doctrines as any "organized" religion.
But, like I've mentioned before, my Baha'i friends kept their liberalness. Unlike some Baha'is that push Baha'u'llah as much as some Christians push Jesus.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yeah, I sent that one post to you before I read this one. That's exactly what I was trying to say. Can Baha'is push love, respect, and acceptance of all religions without pushing their beliefs that Baha'u'llah is, essentially, the only way to unite and bring peace to the world?
I don't think they can, because Baha'is don't believe that any other religion can do what the Baha'i Faith believes it can do... And that's bring peace to the world.
For Baha'is, I think all is "acceptance" stuff is only the first step in getting people to get away from their old, individual religions and see the "truth" in all religions. The next step would be to see that God has sent a new manifestation, Baha'u'llah.