Building Bridges to the Unity of Humanity

[TransmutingSoul]

It is true some kind plan is needed. However, the Gods already have such plans. Soon, perhaps in a year or two, the Christ will be here. He will guide and lead humanity into peace and unity.

Actually, we do have to do the work ourselves, but the Christ will be there to show us the way. So, for now, we don't need to make our own plans, which will be difficult to implement without the Christ's help, given the discord, polarization and conflict in the world today.

I agree God has the Major plan, the issue we face is that Christ returned in 1844 to prepare the way for Baha'u'llah "The Glory of God".

The path to peace was offered and rejected.

Great change will indeed happen, maybe it will not take 2 years more. Many cities are in great danger, the northern hemisphere most likely will be contaminated. There has been a lot of warnings given to us, from God.

Happy to discuss, only if interested.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

He has succeeded where none have in establishing the only world community comprised of a cross section of humanity including all races, religions and nationalities previously irreconciled and conflicting under one world governing body, and achievement of world unity on a small scale that the world so far has been unable to do.

Baha'u'llah has not failed, the world has. He has created a united world community as opposed to your disunited, fragmented and warring world which criticizes Him and us yet where is your peace and unity? We can show you ours. Please show us yours.

In my view we've been over this P.R.A.T.T so many times and still you are disingenuously repeating it?!

Baha'is have not achieved anything not already achieved by a number of other sects such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Ahmadiyya Muslims etc in my view.

It is no great achievement to only achieve unity with those who agree with you the way I see it.

It is precisely this failure to unite those who disagree with you that shows that Baha'i Faith is unfit for world leadership which is what you appear to be trying to draw your apples and oranges comparison with between Baha'i leadership who only have to manage an insignificant sect (and even that they do poorly at in my view), and world leaders who have to bring together peoples who are often militantly opposed.

When the Baha'i have successfully negotiated a war between even two cities let me know and we'll see if they can successfully negotiate a war between two countries.

The fact of the matter in my view is that Baha'i conservatives seek to weed out liberals and there are significant historical events reflecting this such as with dialogue magazine. Well guess what, you can kick non-conformists out of your faith group in order to maintain a pseudo semblance of unity but you can't kick them off the planet.

This inability of Baha'i to achieve real unity with those who disagree is precisely why it is unlikely it will ever gain traction in my view. And this failure rests squarely on the shoulders of Baha'u'llah for designing his faith with fundamental doctrines that the masses as a whole are highly unlikely to ever agree on as I see it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In my view we've been over this P.R.A.T.T so many times and still you are disingenuously repeating it?!

Baha'is have not achieved anything not already achieved by a number of other sects such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Ahmadiyya Muslims etc in my view.

It is no great achievement to only achieve unity with those who agree with you the way I see it.

It is precisely this failure to unite those who disagree with you that shows that Baha'i Faith is unfit for world leadership which is what you appear to be trying to draw your apples and oranges comparison with between Baha'i leadership who only have to manage an insignificant sect (and even that they do poorly at in my view), and world leaders who have to bring together peoples who are often militantly opposed.

When the Baha'i have successfully negotiated a war between even two cities let me know and we'll see if they can successfully negotiate a war between two countries.

The fact of the matter in my view is that Baha'i conservatives seek to weed out liberals and there are significant historical events reflecting this such as with dialogue magazine. Well guess what, you can kick non-conformists out of your faith group in order to maintain a pseudo semblance of unity but you can't kick them off the planet.

This inability of Baha'i to achieve real unity with those who disagree is precisely why it is unlikely it will ever gain traction in my view. And this failure rests squarely on the shoulders of Baha'u'llah for designing his faith with fundamental doctrines that the masses as a whole are highly unlikely to ever agree on as I see it.

World Peace is up to all humanity, not just Baha'i, the world has to come to the realisation that only God can release us from our perplexities.

"... Today on this earth there are many souls who are promoters of peace and reconciliation and are longing for the realization of the oneness and unity of the world of humanity; but this intention needeth a dynamic power, so that it may become manifest in the world of being. In this day the divine instructions and lordly exhortations promulgate this most great aim, and the confirmations of the Kingdom also support and aid the realization of this intention. Therefore, although the combined forces and thoughts of the nations of the world cannot by themselves achieve this exalted purpose, the power of the Word of God penetrateth all things and the assistance of the divine Kingdom is continuous. Erelong it will become evident and clear that the ensign of the Most Great Peace is the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh, and the tent of union and harmony among nations is the Tabernacle of the divine Kingdom, for therein the intention, the power and the action, all three, are brought together. The realization of everything in the world of being dependeth upon these three elements..." (Abdul'Baha From a Tablet - translated from Persian)

Until humanity does awaken to what will save it from its own self, this will continue.

"..Chaos and confusion are daily increasing in the world. They will attain such intensity as to render the frame of mankind unable to bear them. Then will men be awakened and become aware that religion is the impregnable stronghold and the manifest light of the world, and its laws, exhortations and teachings the source of life on earth....."(From a Tablet - translated from the Persian)

You are debating against the only thing that can save humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

World Peace is up to all humanity, not just Baha'i,

Sure Tony, but by unnecessary dishonest polemic against certain groups such as the LGBT and the portion of so-called "covenant breakers" that are only friendly dissenters Baha'i are throwing a spanner in the works of peace in my view.

the world has to come to the realisation that only God can release us from our perplexities.

This contradicts your prior statement that peace is up to humanity in my view. Is it up to God or up to humanity to release ourselves from our own perplexities? Make up your mind in my view.

You are debating against the only thing that can save humanity.

No I'm not debating secular humanism and similar peaceful philosophies in my view.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This contradicts your prior statement that peace is up to humanity in my view. Is it up to God or up to humanity to release ourselves from our own perplexities? Make up your mind in my view.

It's quite clear, it is up to humanity to embrace the Councels given by God, as only God can guide us from our perplexities.

No other way can find peace danieldemol. It is only out of a sense of justice and love that I offer this constantly. Why else would I post what I know many will reject? I can quote those quotes, but, well I see change will not happen now without us all facing great destruction.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

Yes... The "religious" part of the Baha'i Faith might actually be part of why they haven't been able to do much.

I really think this has the most to do with it

Christ returned in 1844

But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and it's not enough to say "Read the life of the Bab" or to expect people to read through thousands of wordy tablets translated in a difficult pseudo Shakespearian style.

The one who makes the claim needs to demonstrate the evidence, rather than blaming the rest of the world for not finding strong enough reason in their busy lives to do the digging work. Bahá'í should understand human nature better than that

If Baha'u'llah could be viewed as a convincing and influential figure for world peace, as a Mandela or as a Ghandi but on a global rather than a purely national mission, he would get more traction both with atheists and among followers of other religions than with his claim to be the single manifestation of God for the next millenium, imo

But it's too late to rewind all that now

 

[danieldemol]

It's quite clear, it is up to humanity to embrace the Councels given by God, as only God can guide us from our perplexities.

No other way can find peace danieldemol. It is only out of a sense of justice and love that I offer this constantly. Why else would I post what I know many will reject? I can quote those quotes, but, well I see change will not happen now without us all facing great destruction.

Regards Tony

Yeah the Bahai tell us to embrace the counsels given by God as related by Baha'u'llah, the Ahmadiyya tell us to embrace the counsels given by God as related by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Mormons tell us to embrace the counsels given by God as related by Joseph Smith, and on and on it goes ad infinitum.

Perhaps if God were to do God's work of relaying the information instead of relying on all these dodgy delusional characters to relay God's message we wouldn't be in this mess. Oh well, it's hardly the fault of humans that God refuses to directly intervene in my view.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The one who makes the claim needs to demonstrate the evidence, rather than blaming the rest of the world for not finding strong enough reason in their busy lives to do the digging work. Bahá'í should understand human nature better than that

We are human, we fully understand why human nature prevents people from embracing God's Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah the Bahai tell us to embrace the counsels given by God as related by Baha'u'llah, the Ahmadiyya tell us to embrace the counsels given by God as related by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Mormons tell us to embrace the counsels given by God as related by Joseph Smith, and on and on it goes ad infinitum.

Perhaps if God were to do God's work of relaying the information instead of relying on all these dodgy delusional characters to relay God's message we wouldn't be in this mess. Oh well, it's hardly the fault of humans that God refuses to directly intervene in my view.

The quandary of God given choices danieldemol. The complexity of God's purpose for humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

We are human, we fully understand why human nature prevents people from embracing God's Messengers.

Regards Tony

Tony: what do the Baha'i expect of people who cannot read? A large percentage of people cannot

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony: what do the Baha'i expect of people who cannot read? A large percentage of people cannot

Universal compulsory education. Women and men. The Baha'i actually had schools for girls in Iran, until they killed the teachers, shut and destroyed the schools.

It is a progressive Revelation that corrects mistake we have made in the past. The subjugation of the masses, races and women to dominate was an act of wayward men.

Islam will fail with its continuing subjugation of women and religions.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

Yeah the Bahai tell us to embrace the counsels given by God as related by Baha'u'llah, the Ahmadiyya tell us to embrace the counsels given by God as related by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Mormons tell us to embrace the counsels given by God as related by Joseph Smith, and on and on it goes ad infinitum.

Perhaps if God were to do God's work of relaying the information instead of relying on all these dodgy delusional characters to relay God's message we wouldn't be in this mess. Oh well, it's hardly the fault of humans that God refuses to directly intervene in my view.

@danieldemol

It seems you were once Baha'i. There are Baha'i here who have literally given the best part of their lives all in for that faith. It might be devastating for someone who's devoted their whole life to a cause, to become convinced that cause is invalid.

How were you personally affected

 

[danieldemol]

@danieldemol

It seems you were once Baha'i. There are Baha'i here who have literally given the best part of their lives all in for that faith. It might be devastating for someone who's devoted their whole life to a cause, to become convinced that cause is invalid.

How were you personally affected

After some decades of following the faith I came to the realisation that it was contrary to science.

At first I sort of shrugged it off and said to myself, "ok, so perhaps not everything Baha'u'llah said is 100 per cent true but there are still salvageable good ideas there."

So I decided to follow the Baha'i faith the way a liberal Christian would follow Christianity, not believing 100% but having enough agreement on certain points to loosely identify with the faith.

In doing so I quickly found myself publicly chased out of the faith by certain members of this board, some of whom are active to this day.

It was a cause of sadness to see certain Baha'i have this with us or against us attitude, but the chips fell where they did and I've moved on with my life.

My Father and Brother remain Baha'i and because of the acrimonious nature of some of the discussions I had with Baha'i online for telling them uncomfortable truths about the Bahai faith I decided to avoid discussing the issue with family in real life.

Not much point destroying family relationships over a faith I've come to see as ridiculous.

 

[Trailblazer]

After some decades of following the faith I came to the realisation that it was contrary to science.

At first I sort of shrugged it off and said to myself, "ok, so perhaps not everything Baha'u'llah said is 100 per cent true but there are still salvageable good ideas there."

Can you tell me what Baha'u'llah wrote that is contrary to science?
I don't care what Abdu'l-Baha said or wrote, only Baha'u'llah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

After some decades of following the faith I came to the realisation that it was contrary to science.

At first I sort of shrugged it off and said to myself, "ok, so perhaps not everything Baha'u'llah said is 100 per cent true but there are still salvageable good ideas there."

So I decided to follow the Baha'i faith the way a liberal Christian would follow Christianity, not believing 100% but having enough agreement on certain points to loosely identify with the faith.

In doing so I quickly found myself publicly chased out of the faith by certain members of this board, some of whom are active to this day.

It was a cause of sadness to see certain Baha'i have this with us or against us attitude, but the chips fell where they did and I've moved on with my life.

My Father and Brother remain Baha'i and because of the acrimonious nature of some of the discussions I had with Baha'i online for telling them uncomfortable truths about the Bahai faith I decided to avoid discussing the issue with family in real life.

Not much point destroying family relationships over a faith I've come to see as ridiculous.

Having followed your postings for many a year, I see the path out of a faith is one's own choice. Even in this post you have indicated why this path was possible. You stated doubts about the truth as to what the Message of Baha’u’llah contains.

I wish you well on any path you choose to take. I can only offer there is no untruths in the Writings of the Faith, there is a lot of our own misunderstandings about the context of the quotes and the meanings behind them.

I see many people struggle with some aspects of faith, but should we think it will be an easy path to understanding it all?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It's quite clear, it is up to humanity to embrace the Councels given by God, as only God can guide us from our perplexities.

Is it "quite clear" what are the counsels of God?

We are human, we fully understand why human nature prevents people from embracing God's Messengers.

And some of "God's" messages that have been "embraced" didn't work so well.

Yeah the Bahai tell us to embrace the counsels given by God as related by Baha'u'llah, the Ahmadiyya tell us to embrace the counsels given by God as related by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Mormons tell us to embrace the counsels given by God as related by Joseph Smith, and on and on it goes ad infinitum.

Yeah, then there is this... There are contradictory "counsels" of God that have been given. Hmmm? Which one should we embrace? Both the Admadiyya and Mormons have more people that have "embraced" them, then Baha'u'llah.

there is no untruths in the Writings of the Faith, there is a lot of our own misunderstandings about the context of the quotes and the meanings behind them.

So, is it true the Ishmael was the son taken to be sacrificed by Abraham? And it's true that Jesus never came back to life but died and stayed dead?

Then that means the Bible and the NT are inaccurate... as in... they telling us things that didn't happen and are untrue.

There are no misunderstandings of what is written in the Bible and the NT about those stories. So, if Baha'u'llah is correct, then the Bible and the NT are passing on fake stories. Yet, he says that the Bible, and I assume he means the NT too, are "sure" guides? No, if they aren't completely true in what they say they are "sure" ways to be misguided.

Which makes Baha'u'llah wrong about the Bible being a "sure" guide. Hey, either way he's wrong. If the Bible and the NT are correct in what they say, Baha'u'llah is wrong. If the Bible and the NT are wrong about things, then Baha'u'llah is wrong about calling them "sure" guides.

Or... maybe all religious Scriptures can be "sure" guides for some people in some ways. But they are not perfect. And that's the problem like when some Christians claim that the Bible and the NT is perfect... that it is the infallible, inerrant Word of God... It is too easy to see where it isn't.

And Baha'is have the same problem... Their sacred writings are claimed to be perfect... As if everything Baha'u'llah said is the inerrant, infallible Word of God... When Baha'is put the bar that high, any little thing brings the whole thing down.

All I had to do is look at the Baha'i belief in "progressive" revelation and could see flaws in it. Then I don't know what to think about that copper changing into gold thing. Do Baha'is believe that is literally true.

But then, because Baha'u'llah made his son Abdul Baha' essentially infallible in the things he said, then there's a whole bunch of things that he said that I don't think are true.

But, like with the Born Again Christian, Baha'is have to maintain that the Baha'i Faith is perfectly true. But how do Baha'is expect the whole world to get behind that kind of belief?

Then there's so many laws. And I keep asking Baha'is... Which religions that had a bunch of laws were ever successful in getting their people to obey them?

But I get it... Religions have to claim what they say is "The Truth". Otherwise who's going to listen to them? So, the big claim... This is "The Truth" from The Almighty God. So, you better listen and you better obey... or else... God's not going to be happy with you.

So, for those poor people that believe it, there is a pretty powerful fear factor going on. You can't see him. But he's there. And you don't want to get on his bad side. And what is the Baha'i threat? That we're going to go through hell for not listening.

Gee thanks, God. How wonderful and loving of you. Make religions so confusing and contradictory, and then punish people for not believing in you.

 

[danieldemol]

Can you tell me what Baha'u'llah wrote that is contrary to science?
I don't care what Abdu'l-Baha said or wrote, only Baha'u'llah.

In my view i've already told you many times before Trailblazer.

Pleading ignorance of discussions we have had ad nauseum does not strike me as productive debate practice and there's honestly not much point since your heterodox views are held by few people, in fact I doubt they are held by anyone other than yourself if we get into the finer details of them.

 

[CG Didymus]

I agree God has the Major plan, the issue we face is that Christ returned in 1844 to prepare the way for Baha'u'llah "The Glory of God".

But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and it's not enough to say "Read the life of the Bab"

So, now the claim is that the Bab is the return of Christ? So, Baha'u'llah is not? Or the actual claim is that they both are? I know they make a big deal of the year 1844... as if that is the year predicted by Daniel. And If the Baha'is claim that is the year of the coming of the Messiah, then that has to be the Bab.

But then everything about the Bab is replaced by the teachings of Baha'u'llah 19 years later in 1863? Which needs to have prophecies for the Messiah coming in that year too. And I do believe they find one somewhere that they can make fit. But 1844 is the main year they push as being "The Year."

It's hard for me to want to build bridges with them when I know there's so much stuff they claim that I can't agree with.

 

[Trailblazer]

In my view i've already told you many times before Trailblazer.

Pleading ignorance of discussions we have had ad nauseum does not strike me as productive debate practice and there's honestly not much point since your heterodox views are held by few people, in fact I doubt they are held by anyone other than yourself if we get into the finer details of them.

I am not pleading ignorance, I just don't remember, but never mind.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It's quite clear, it is up to humanity to embrace the Councils given by God, as only God can guide us from our perplexities.

It's clear to me that the religions of the world are not the answer to human strife and division. They fuel it. None of their gods or scriptures have answers. If man is to see any problem remedied, he will need to find a way to fix it himself. If we are to be "guided from our perplexities," we'll need to do so ourselves. Whereas theists look to scripture for answers and help, humanists look to themselves.

No other way can find peace

Disagree. Look at the places where peace can be found. That peace was accomplished without gods or religions. I consider it a mistake and a distraction to keep pointing to revelation for answers.

You just need to look at the world and history to see what ideologies and activities have promoted peace and unity. Who is actually pushing the world in that direction? Where did the idea of modern democracies with guaranteed rights come from? Where did the idea that slavery should be abolished come from? Who is promoting equality and acceptance of all law-abiding people?

Look at all of the secular organization and institutions such as the UN, NATO, and the EU that actively promote unity and ask yourself what ideology underlies such efforts? Not the religions. Humanism - the belief that reason applied to empathy and evidence is the path to healthy societies and happy lives.

It is only out of a sense of justice and love that I offer this constantly.

That's nice, but the same motives motivate me to disagree with you. Sincerity and good will are not enough. You need results.