By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[ElishaElijah]

No, you first have to learn the basics of science. It won't take terribly long, I just want you to learn the scientific method and the concept of scientific evidence. We can go over your other arguments too. Let's begin. Here is a simplified flowchart of the scientific method. It is not the only one, but it is rather good because it hits all of the important points:
View attachment 86727

Nice one! Don’t we do this in life naturally? Don’t we look at life, when I live and do these things my life goes good or when I do this they don’t and then make adjustments or in some cases continue down a destructive path?

 

[ElishaElijah]

What objective test will distinguish a supernatural event from an imaginary event in the absence of objective evidence?

Not sure what you’re trying to say here, I think people explain away the supernatural and encounters with God everyday and are just blind to them. Sometimes the miracles that God does for a person are just for them, like when I pray for things and God does what I ask.
People can be skeptical and ask for objective evidence and all that but look she was in a coma,
we prayed and now she isn’t and recovering. I just thank God for that and continue to pray for people and things that are beyond my control. For the last 35 years there are so many testimonies of God coming through for us and He continues to. We’ve tasted and seen that the Lord is good! So for us yes we’ve have tested the Word of God and found it reliable and God faithful.
There is a huge difference between the first 28 years of my life, than the last 35 or so. The first 28 was me living according to Hollywood’s version or society’s version of fun and satisfaction and it left me empty, without purpose and isolated.
The last 35 have been blessing, purpose, satisfaction and like I said a relationship with the living God who proves His love for us daily.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nice one! Don’t we do this in life naturally? Don’t we look at life, when I live and do these things my life goes good or when I do this they don’t and then make adjustments or in some cases continue down a destructive path?

No. We don't. You definitely do not do that with your beliefs. That is why I have asked you if you have ever properly tested them and you have not done so. What most people look for is observations that support confirmation bias. They never put their idea into a proper testable form.

In a hypothesis one has an explanation and a model. The model can be used to make predictions. Some of those predictions will be of the form of "If am right we should see . . ." And those are very nice to have. But if that is all that one has then one does not have a hypothesis. Some of the predictions almost must be of the form "If we see . . . my model is wrong". An alternative would be "IF we do not see . . . I am wrong". One needs a clear test that would show the model wrong to have a hypothesis. It has to be reasonable. For example we already know that heavy things fall down. So having a test that says "If something falls up my hypothesis is refuted" won't work as a proper hypothesis. Ideally it is something unknown at the time of the making of the hypothesis.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No. We don't. You definitely do not do that with your beliefs. That is why I have asked you if you have ever properly tested them and you have not done so. What most people look for is observations that support confirmation bias. They never put their idea into a proper testable form.

Of course I have or I wouldn’t be a believer in Jesus Christ. If you would read and understand what people say you would see that.
You communicate that you are faithless, godless, hopeless…no future, when you die you die, among other things you’ve said character wise that you’re addicted to. This isn’t a life that’s attractive or worked for me as I’ve stated.
My life is full of hope, faith, I know God and He speaks, I have power over my fleshly desires I didn’t have before God entered my life. I’ve received the blessings of God more than I ever would have dreamed or thought. How? Because I first repented and believed the Gospel, made a covenant with God and He opened my mind and understanding of the Bible, He empowered me to live a holy life and know I have eternal life and living that life now.
By you saying you haven’t properly tested what I already received is very funny to me, it’s like I have a million dollars and tell you how and you don’t believe me because other people have a million dollars and got there’s a different way. Then you proceed to give me a formula to test the reality of how I received the million dollars, this is very funny.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Of course I have or I wouldn’t be a believer in Jesus Christ. If you would read and understand what people say you would see that.
You communicate that you are faithless, godless, hopeless…no future, when you die you die, among other things you’ve said character wise that you’re addicted to. This isn’t a life that’s attractive or worked for me as I’ve stated.
My life is full of hope, faith, I know God and He speaks, I have power over my fleshly desires I didn’t have before God entered my life. I’ve received the blessings of God more than I ever would have dreamed or thought. How? Because I first repented and believed the Gospel, made a covenant with God and He opened my mind and understanding of the Bible, He empowered me to live a holy life and know I have eternal life and living that life now.
By you saying you haven’t properly tested what I already received is very funny to me, it’s like I have a million dollars and tell you how and you don’t believe me because other people have a million dollars and got there’s a different way. Then you proceed to give me a formula to test the reality of how I received the million dollars, this is very funny.

No, you really have not done that. I have never met a Christian that could say how they have done that. The have only presented arguments using circular reasoning, confirmation bias and other logical fallacies. Just think, you could be a first. How have you properly tested your beliefs?

And please, do not abuse the word "know". That word puts a burden of proof upon you. There is nothing wrong with saying "I believe". No one will doubt you, at least not too much. But if you say "I know" then if someone asks you how you know you need to demonstrate how .

At any rate we are getting rather far off from the scientific method, unless you want to try to form a proper testable hypothesis in regards to your beliefs.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, you really have not done that. I have never met a Christian that could say how they have done that. The have only presented arguments using circular reasoning, confirmation bias and other logical fallacies. Just think, you could be a first. How have you properly tested your beliefs?

And please, do not abuse the word "know". That word puts a burden of proof upon you. There is nothing wrong with saying "I believe". No one will doubt you, at least not too much. But if you say "I know" then if someone asks you how you know you need to demonstrate how .

At any rate we are getting rather far off from the scientific method, unless you want to try to form a proper testable hypothesis in regards to your beliefs.

I do know because I have received what God promised, come and see. If I said I just believe then I’d be lying.
Why would I say I believe I have something when I possess it?
I can say I believe I will get a glorified body after I die because based on what I have already received from God because I haven’t received that yet so I have faith or trust that God will give me what He promised, why? Because He has already given things to me that I possess, so why would I say I believe I have those things?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I do know because I have received what God promised, come and see. If I said I just believe then I’d be lying.

And there you go, that is just confirmation bias. Were you not paying attention at all? To properly test your ideas you need a reasonable "If I observe this I am wrong" test.

Like it or not you do just believe. And you should not conflate being wrong with lying. You are wrong about knowing. That does not mean that you are lying when you say that you know, it only means that you made an error of conflating a strong belief with knowing.

 

[ElishaElijah]

And there you go, that is just confirmation bias. Were you not paying attention at all? To properly test your ideas you need a reasonable "If I observe this I am wrong" test.

Like it or not you do just believe. And you should not conflate being wrong with lying. You are wrong about knowing. That does not mean that you are lying when you say that you know, it only means that you made an error of conflating a strong belief with knowing.

You say it’s confirmation bias based on your own life because you haven’t personally received anything from God.
I have received and told you how, you’re like the Pharisees questioning how the blind guy received his sight, he kept telling them but couldn’t bring themselves to believe it, why? I think because of their pride and arrogance, they thought they were the greatest but had no power to heal anyone, Jesus Christ did and still does, He did it for me

 

[Subduction Zone]

You say it’s confirmation bias based on your own life because you haven’t personally received anything from God.
I have received and told you how, you’re like the Pharisees questioning how the blind guy received his sight, he kept telling them but couldn’t bring themselves to believe it, why? I think because of their pride and arrogance, they thought they were the greatest but had no power to heal anyone.

No. you need to listen. It is "confirmation bias" when one only looks at elements that seem to support you. You did not form a proper hypothesis. You did not have a proper test.

Please quite making false claims about others simply because you disagree with them. If you wanted to show that I was wrong you would need to show the reasonable test that could disprove your beliefs. If you do not have such a test then you have no evidence.

The scientific method works based upon the ability for others to show that you are wrong, if you are wrong. And you are missing that very very important part of testing your ideas.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

No, you really have not done that. I have never met a Christian that could say how they have done that. The have only presented arguments using circular reasoning, confirmation bias and other logical fallacies. Just think, you could be a first. How have you properly tested your beliefs?

And please, do not abuse the word "know". That word puts a burden of proof upon you. There is nothing wrong with saying "I believe". No one will doubt you, at least not too much. But if you say "I know" then if someone asks you how you know you need to demonstrate how .

At any rate we are getting rather far off from the scientific method, unless you want to try to form a proper testable hypothesis in regards to your beliefs.

First and foremost, I don't believe that religious beliefs are objective facts. This is one reason why I support the forum rule prohibiting members from stating their religious beliefs as a definitive matter of fact rather than a personal belief or opinion. Second, I agree with you about Christians claiming to know rather than believe. Based on my experience as a former Christian, this is common with most of the Christians I've met during my lifetime. Despite their prior passionate declaration of knowing, many of them are now former Christians like I am. I was also confident in knowing for a while when I was a devout Christian too, but as it turns out, I essentially studied my way out of believing in God and the Bible. I finally found the courage to re-examine my beliefs in God and the Bible and genuinely question my beliefs. I refer to it as removing the rose-colored glasses and confronting my reality rather than continuing to live in the false hope of believing in God. As far as I'm concerned, there is no real hope in believing in and having faith in the biblical God or any other god. I have no doubt that I am considerably better off in life now that I have let go of this false hope. As I've previously stated, it was one of the best decisions that I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being. I don't regret my decision, but I do wish that I had made it years ago.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No. you need to listen. It is "confirmation bias" when one only looks at elements that seem to support you. You did not form a proper hypothesis. You did not have a proper test.

Please quite making false claims about others simply because you disagree with them. If you wanted to show that I was wrong you would need to show the reasonable test that could disprove your beliefs. If you do not have such a test then you have no evidence.

The scientific method works based upon the ability for others to show that you are wrong, if you are wrong. And you are missing that very very important part of testing your ideas.

Has God ever done anything for you that you know of? If so name it otherwise what I said is accurate.
You say confirmation bias when you have no clue because you weren’t there and have no experience with God, so from your view and opinion you falsely call out something.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Has God ever done anything for you that you know of? If so name it otherwise what I said is accurate.
You say confirmation bias when you have no clue because you weren’t there and have no experience with God, so from your view and opinion you falsely call out something.

No, I am unaware of any god doing anything for me. If I did believe that I would not be an atheist. By the way, an atheist merely lacks a belief in a god. Show us evidence and we will change our minds. You unfortunately will not change your mind in the face of evidence.

And no, it is not that I have "no clue". That once again is a false accusation. You failed in your burden of proof. You need to show that you have a test that has a reasonable way to be tested. If you do not have that then by definition all that you have is confirmation bias. You are the one that tells me that you only have confirmation bias when you cannot come up with an appropriate test for your beliefs.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, I am unaware of any god doing anything for me. If I did believe that I would not be an atheist. By the way, an atheist merely lacks a belief in a god. Show us evidence and we will change our minds. You unfortunately will not change your mind in the face of evidence.

And no, it is not that I have "no clue". That once again is a false accusation. You failed in your burden of proof. You need to show that you have a test that has a reasonable way to be tested. If you do not have that then by definition all that you have is confirmation bias. You are the one that tells me that you only have confirmation bias when you cannot come up with an appropriate test for your beliefs.

You don’t have a clue, you’re similar to a blind man telling a person with sight that what they see isn’t there.
You wouldn’t change your mind because then you’d have to admit you were wrong, turn away from your sin and live a holy life, I personally would call that a miracle.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You don’t have a clue, you’re similar to a blind man telling a person with sight that what they see isn’t there.

That again is a false claim about others. I explained to you how you failed. If you did not understand you should have asked questions. Do not attack with falsehoods.

I can understand that you have a very very strong belief. But that is not evidence, That is not knowing. And when I gave you a road to having evidence you refused to take it. Perhaps your beliefs are not as strong as you want them to be.

Scientists have to be "brave" in this sense. Scientists have to try their best to refute their own ideas because they know that if they do a slip shod job of attacking their own ideas, that others will not be so easy on them. So even before a scientist releases his ideas at least one person (the scientist himself) has tried to refute them.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

No, I am unaware of any god doing anything for me. If I did believe that I would not be an atheist. By the way, an atheist merely lacks a belief in a god. Show us evidence and we will change our minds. You unfortunately will not change your mind in the face of evidence.

And no, it is not that I have "no clue". That once again is a false accusation. You failed in your burden of proof. You need to show that you have a test that has a reasonable way to be tested. If you do not have that then by definition all that you have is confirmation bias. You are the one that tells me that you only have confirmation bias when you cannot come up with an appropriate test for your beliefs.

I don't believe that the existence of the biblical God or other gods can be proven or disproven. Therefore, my answer to the question of their existence is simple and honest: I don't know. I'm not sure whether deities exist or not because I've never seen conclusive evidence that has convinced me or felt the presence of one in my life, even when I was a Christian. I don't believe that there is sufficient evidence for the existence of the biblical God or any other deity, for that matter. I don't entirely believe in the existence of gods since I haven't seen any kind of evidence that has convinced me of their existence. And while I practice Wicca and Druidry, I acknowledge that I lack empirical evidence or alleged evidence that any deities exist. Having said that, I choose to believe in the prospect of deities while recognizing that I can't prove or disprove their existence. I've always been fascinated with spirituality and beliefs in supernatural phenomena, but I'm not willing to state that I am fully confident, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the God of the Bible or any other deities actually exist. I'm not all-knowing and all-powerful, and I can't be in all places at once or explore all of space and time. So, as far as I'm concerned, I can't honestly determine whether there is only one God, if there are other deities, or if there aren't any deities at all. So I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. And since I've renounced my belief in God and my Christian faith, I've decided that I don't need to believe in the biblical God or in any deities in order to be a good person, make moral decisions, or feel peace, joy, and contentment in my life. I believe that it was an emotional crutch, and I no longer need it in my life.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't believe that the existence of the biblical God or other gods can be proven or disproven. Therefore, my answer to the question of their existence is simple and honest: I don't know. I'm not sure whether deities exist or not because I've never seen conclusive evidence that has convinced me or felt the presence of one in my life, even when I was a Christian. I don't believe that there is sufficient evidence for the existence of the biblical God or any other deity, for that matter. I don't entirely believe in the existence of gods since I haven't seen any kind of evidence that has convinced me of their existence. And while I practice Wicca and Druidry, I acknowledge that I lack empirical evidence or alleged evidence that any deities exist. Having said that, I choose to believe in the prospect of deities while recognizing that I can't prove or disprove their existence. I've always been fascinated with spirituality and beliefs in supernatural phenomena, but I'm not willing to state that I am fully confident, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the God of the Bible or any other deities actually exist. I'm not all-knowing and all-powerful, and I can't be in all places at once or explore all of space and time. So, as far as I'm concerned, I can't honestly determine whether there is only one God, if there are other deities, or if there aren't any deities at all. So I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. Since I renounced my Christian faith and left Christianity, I've decided that I don't need to believe in the biblical God or in any deities in order to be a good person, make moral decisions, or feel peace, joy, and contentment in my life.

I would say that when it comes to refuting the existence of a biblical God I would say that it depends on which version.

As to the general rather nondescript version of believing and following the teachings of Jesus I would say that god cannot be refuted.

But as one gets more and more literal and has a better and better defined God then I would say that those individual versions can be refuted.

For example, even most YEC's will agree that a Flat Earth God can be refuted. If one insists that God made a Flat Earth that can be refuted by endless means. The same can be said of an OEC God. And of a Noah's Ark Flood God, those can be refuted. But if one is wiling to ignore the myths of Genesis and Exodus then it gets to be a bit more difficult.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I can understand that you have a very very strong belief. But that is not evidence, That is not knowing. And when I gave you a road to having evidence you refused to take it. Perhaps your beliefs are not as strong as you want them to be.

See how you make false claims about others because you make false assumptions…I believe I will receive an inheritance tomorrow, when tomorrow comes I and I receive the inheritance I don’t need to believe anymore because I have received my inheritance.
What you say is you only believe you received the inheritance.
Brother it’s in the bank and I’m using it.
You still don’t believe that, why? Because it hasn’t happened to you?
Sounds like you believe if a person thinks hard enough they can do miraculous things for themselves and that sounds like new age thinking.

 

[blü 2]

Not sure what you’re trying to say here, I think people explain away the supernatural and encounters with God everyday and are just blind to them.

As far as I can tell, the only way in which supernatural beings, God included, are known to exist, is as concepts, notions, things imagined in individual brains, frequently shaped by acculturation. For instance, God never appears, says or does, and sits on [his] almighty hands and watches little kids drown, murders and bashings occur, awful diseases become part of the landscape. If a human wants to make the world a better place, it's DIY from start to finish. I don't need to imagine God to think that we should, as best we can, treat all our fellow-humans with decency, respect, inclusion and common sense, and of course do no harm.

 

[ElishaElijah]

As far as I can tell, the only way in which supernatural beings, God included, are known to exist, is as concepts, notions, things imagined in individual brains, frequently shaped by acculturation. For instance, God never appears, says or does, and sits on [his] almighty hands and watches little kids drown, murders and bashings occur, awful diseases become part of the landscape. If a human wants to make the world a better place, it's DIY from start to finish. I don't need to imagine God to think that we should, as best we can, treat all our fellow-humans with decency, respect, inclusion and common sense, and of course do no harm.

Well you’re entitled to your view but that’s not my experience with God at all. He is my Father and I’m his adopted son, He told me that.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That again is a false claim about others. I explained to you how you failed. If you did not understand you should have asked questions. Do not attack with falsehoods.

I can understand that you have a very very strong belief. But that is not evidence, That is not knowing. And when I gave you a road to having evidence you refused to take it. Perhaps your beliefs are not as strong as you want them to be.

Scientists have to be "brave" in this sense. Scientists have to try their best to refute their own ideas because they know that if they do a slip shod job of attacking their own ideas, that others will not be so easy on them. So even before a scientist releases his ideas at least one person (the scientist himself) has tried to refute them.

I'm pleased to see that you're not falling for what I consider to be the shaming guilt-tripping antics of some Christians accusing others of living in sin, being spiritually blind, or rebelling against God. It's just pure nonsense, in my opinion. As a former Christian, I believe that these antics, along with the scaremongering threats of hell, are detrimental to a person's mental health and emotional well-being. It was certainly true in my life and in the lives of other former Christians I know, especially the ones in my survivors of childhood abuse support group. Like me, they are truly grateful to be free of it.

I believe that this is yet another reason for me to agree with Penn Jillette: "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want?" And my answer is: I rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine." I believe that he was correct and that I don't need to believe in God to be a moral person. I believe the same for other people as well.