By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[Kenny]

I'd point out that the literalism that is seen in some Christians today is a very recent interpretation that was not shared by those who chose the books of the Bible, who developed the basic doctrines of Christianity, and has no ancient justification. What it meant to be the 'Word of God' was that it was a good metaphor for life and the universe, but the literal meaning was usually seen as the least important part of the writings. Remember that the Bible wasn't actually assembled until about 400AD. When it talks about scripture in the Biblical writings, it does NOT mean today's Bible. At most, it means the (then) canonical Jewish writings.

Yes… liberalism is an end-time prophetical reality.

However, I would point out that the “assembling of the Bible” doesn’t detract from the veracity of it verbiage. The veracity of the Gospels and the letters were already established. “Other books” were creeping in so they assembled the books to prevent the infiltration of pseudo-Christian books.

So, it is today’s Bible or the Word of God inspired.

 

[Kenny]

I find many of the attitudes I see expressed by those claiming to be Christian to be repellent and I don't see anything loving about the attitudes of some. I don't recall reading that Christ behaved the way I see sometimes.

I agree. I also find that the “bad apples” are few and far between and get all the attention like the Westbboro Baptist Church. It is unfortunate that those who are working and helping the drug addicts, prostitutes, the homeless, the needy, the lost and so much more don’t get the attention they deserve.

It’s today’s “bad news sells” that gets the front page.

 

[Polymath257]

Well, you sure are missing the mark as far as understanding things, it’s not a matter of whether or not you believe anything about the Bible it’s do you understand what’s being communicated and the progression of things. Clearly you don’t by what you’ve said.

In any text, there are several aspects.

One is the raw text itself. What does it actually say? This is the shallowest view of the text.

Then comes the question of who wrote it and why. Who were they writing to? What was their motivation? How did they benefit? Who paid for them to write it?

Then is the cultural and historic context. What else was going on when the text was written? How did that affect how people understood it originally?

Then is the question of who copied it and why. Before the printing press, it was expensive to have texts copied. So only those that were seen as important to someone willing to pay were actually transmitted. Also, it was common to change the texts to align more with the views of those praying for the copying. This doesn’t address that copying errors were common and often changed meanings as well.

Then is the question of how people originally interacted with the texts. Most people in the past were illiterate. So often texts were read out loud in a group. What was the motivation of that group?

Off we have a collection of texts, someone brought them together. What was their motivation? What texts did they exclude and why? Was more than one person involved? How were disputes resolved?

Then is the question of how interpretation changed over time. Usually the original understanding was modified and the meaning changed to meet the needs of new situations as the society changed.

So, when you talk about a progression, it is crucial to understand how and why the ideas changed and why the older texts were kept.

But the way, this all arises not just with the Bible, but with any text. When reading Csesar’s description of the conquest of Gaul, these same questions come up.

 

[Kenny]

And you to yours.

Now, to go being opinion to truth, what is the evidence? What is testable?

That kinda reminds me of what I said when I gave my life to Christ.

I remember thinking, “Either the Bible is false or true. I’m gong to believe it is true and test the sucker! I’ll find out soon enough whether it is true or false”.

So I would say it is all testable for those who have faith. I haven’t been able to prove it false.

Of course, if one approaches it as not true, they will never find the capacity of what is written. Like a person in a race that says, “I’ll NEVER be able to get the gold medal”. He never will.

Or like the quote, “If you believe you can do a thing or can’t, you are right”.

 

[Polymath257]

What are you going to do with all the OT Scriptures,

Then in context as opposed to trying to fit them into later events.

Jesus in Matthew 28, Peter and Cornelius in Acts, Jesus and Paul in Acts?

What about them??

Jesus is still alive too and making intercession as our High Priest.

That is your opinion. Do you have any evidence outside of confirmation bias? You know, evidence that would convince a skeptic that is open minded?

 

[Polymath257]

Yes… liberalism is an end-time prophetical reality.

However, I would point out that the “assembling of the Bible” doesn’t detract from the veracity of it verbiage. The veracity of the Gospels and the letters were already established. “Other books” were creeping in so they assembled the books to prevent the infiltration of pseudo-Christian books.

So, it is today’s Bible or the Word of God inspired.

No, the veracity was accepted. That is very different than it being established. One obvious question is *why* they were accepted and others rejected. The most obvious answer is that the accepted texts supported the power of the priests that accepted them.

We know the gospels were not written by those who are traditionally assigned to them ( although many, but not all, of the Pauline letters are from Paul). We know that early bishops (Eusebius, for example) were willing to lie to get their views accepted. We know that there are other traditions going back equally far with very different views and those traditions were accepted by other branches of early Christianity. We know that debates over Christs nature had political ramifications and texts were chosen and rejected for those reasons.

Claims of divine inspiration need to be validated. Good luck.

 

[2ndpillar]

However, we do know that he wasn’t his own witness:

Galatians 2:9
and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

Acts 13: 13 Now there were prophets and teachers at Antioch, in the church that was there: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 While they were serving the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set Barnabas and Saul apart for Me for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then, when they had fasted, prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

2 Peter 3:15
and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,

Well, Galatians 2:9 was written by Paul, such as him being his own witness. Acts was written by some unknown author, supposedly, Luke, who according to Luke 1:1, witnessed nothing, and would have to rely on his comrade Paul. 2 Peter 3 was written by some unknown author who wrote under the name of Peter, to give himself some weight. But on the other hand, the "worthless shepherd", Peter, (Zechariah 11:17) calling someone "brother" only reinforces Zechariah 11:7, whereas Peter and Paul were the two "staffs"/"shepherds", taken to "pasture the flock (Gentile church) doomed for slaughter". Per Matthew 7:24-27, the "house" (Gentile church), is about to "fall" for not heeding the message of Yeshua.

 

[ElishaElijah]

That is your opinion. Do you have any evidence outside of confirmation bias? You know, evidence that would convince a skeptic that is open minded?

I’m not here to convince a skeptic, but to share my own relationship, testimony of what God has done and shown me as far as the Truth. I could tell you that I have a great doctor who cured me, if you’re healthy you probably will think that’s really nice.
I was like that for a long time and when I needed that doctor and called out to Him, He showed up, healed me and I found out first hand that He is much more than that.
As far as the Bible, God is the author and by the Spirit of God through men He wrote and recorded the Bible that we have as His Word, Instruction and family history, I would say if a person isn’t part of the family of God and filled with the Spirit of God they won’t understand what the Father of the House means by what He said.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

without faith it is impossible to please Him

Without faith, it is impossible to believe in gods. Also, with faith, one can declare that no gods exist (see below).

What would be one's interest in pleasing a god anyway? I don't require it to please me. Of course, as a Christian, you're no doubt referring to the god of Abraham, which existence can be ruled out by learning what it is alleged to be and to have done. THAT god needs adoration and would punish you for withholding either your faith in it or your adoration of it, but since science has confirmed that there were no first two humans created de novo, that is, there was no Adam and Eve, claims about the god said to have created them and the consequences of their alleged actions can be dismissed.

So, If I'm going to believe in a god by faith, it ought to be one that might exist, like the deist god. Nothing rules non-interventionalist gods out. We need a falsifiable claim such as several of those in Genesis attributed to the god to do that.

A person has to have this right here or why would you ever call out to God in the first place and will be in the place where you’re at: ”Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If the only path to belief of an idea is to suspend reason, then that's an idea that should not be believed.

It's not hard to see why those promoting this religion praise this way of thinking and call it virtuous, but it's a logical error and the quickest way to accumulate false and unfalsifiable beliefs.

Would you prefer that skeptics accepted your scripture's claim that faith is sufficient evidence to declare with certitude even if what they chose to believe was that gods don't exist? According to the believer, that's adding a false belief to one's belief set, but it's the method you and scripture recommend for making such decisions, although I'm sure that both of you would also want to specify what that faith should be in. But you can't control that. If one accepts the validity of belief by faith, he chooses what he'll believe, not others.

You don’t have to see me as having authority, you didn’t appoint me, God did. I didn’t take this upon myself, He gave it to me.

But you have no authority there, since you can't enforce your will and most others don't grant you authority over them, possibly nobody. Maybe you meant that you believe that your god gave you permission to speak for it.

 

[2ndpillar]

What are you going to do with all the OT Scriptures, Jesus in Matthew 28, Peter and Cornelius in Acts, Jesus and Paul in Acts?
Jesus is still alive too and making intercession as our High Priest.

Apparently, the LORD/God does not listen to sinners. As "Christians" claim to be sinners, in the active state, I am thinking the "son of man", as the right hand of God, would do what he sees his Father do. Try praying to God that you be healed. I am thinking that you won't get any reaction. As for Matthew 28:19-20, that is not contained in the earliest edition, which would put it in the realm of "adding" to this "book", and is punishable (Rev 22:18). The Law and the prophets (OT) is not in line with your Trion god dying for your sins (Jeremiah 31:30). As for "Acts", well, if it was written by Luke, a supposed comrade of Paul, he witnessed nothing according to Luke 1:1. You might as well kiss the Muslim black stone for forgiveness of your sins. You remain in your sins, unless you come across a righteous man who can pray for you (James 5:16). I won't hold my breath.

 

[2ndpillar]

I’m not here to convince a skeptic, but to share my own relationship, testimony of what God has done and shown me as far as the Truth. I could tell you that I have a great doctor who cured me, if you’re healthy you probably will think that’s really nice.
I was like that for a long time and when I needed that doctor and called out to Him, He showed up, healed me and I found out first hand that He is much more than that.
As far as the Bible, God is the author and by the Spirit of God through men He wrote and recorded the Bible that we have as His Word, Instruction and family history, I would say if a person isn’t part of the family of God and filled with the Spirit of God they won’t understand what the Father of the House means by what He said.

According to Daniel 12, it is the "wicked" who will not "understand", or in the case of Isaiah 6:9 & Mt 13:14, they will see but not perceive, and hear and not understand.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Now the Bible says this about your view:
”Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!“
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭5‬:‭20‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The Bible doesn't explicitly say a thing about pornography. What does it say about the hubris of people who claim to speak for God?

”Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight!“
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭5‬:‭21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

You're "wise in your own eyes," aren't you?

 

[Polymath257]

I’m not here to convince a skeptic, but to share my own relationship, testimony of what God has done and shown me as far as the Truth. I could tell you that I have a great doctor who cured me, if you’re healthy you probably will think that’s really nice.

And what I see is a snake oil salesman.

I was like that for a long time and when I needed that doctor and called out to Him, He showed up, healed me and I found out first hand that He is much more than that.

People are deluded by false doctors every day. Same with false religions. Some people are convinced they are healed that had nothing wrong to begin with, where the disease went away on its own, or where they are actually still sick.

That is why testable evidence is so important.

As far as the Bible, God is the author and by the Spirit of God through men He wrote and recorded the Bible that we have as His Word, Instruction and family history, I would say if a person isn’t part of the family of God and filled with the Spirit of God they won’t understand what the Father of the House means by what He said.

Again, if you have to believe first, before convincing evidence, you are only dealing with confirmation bias.

 

[Polymath257]

The Bible doesn't explicitly say a thing about pornography. What does it say about the hubris of people who claim to speak for God?



You're "wise in your own eyes," aren't you?

Interesting to see how the cautions never apply to them.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I agree. I also find that the “bad apples” are few and far between and get all the attention like the Westbboro Baptist Church.

I don't think you have to go all the way to Westboro to find bad apples, but I do agree that is an example of bad fruit. Sometimes the bad apples aren't all that far away and not necessarily entirely bad either. Sometimes the bad just needs cut out and you have perfectly good apple.

It is unfortunate that those who are working and helping the drug addicts, prostitutes, the homeless, the needy, the lost and so much more don’t get the attention they deserve.

In my view, they are getting the attention that is important. But it would be nice to see some praise for them too.

It’s today’s “bad news sells” that gets the front page.

I think it has always sold. Now we just have the means to reach more people faster.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

That kinda reminds me of what I said when I gave my life to Christ.

I remember thinking, “Either the Bible is false or true. I’m gong to believe it is true and test the sucker! I’ll find out soon enough whether it is true or false”.

So I would say it is all testable for those who have faith. I haven’t been able to prove it false.

Of course, if one approaches it as not true, they will never find the capacity of what is written. Like a person in a race that says, “I’ll NEVER be able to get the gold medal”. He never will.

Or like the quote, “If you believe you can do a thing or can’t, you are right”.

For me, some of those stories haven't passed the test. That doesn't change the message, but I don't think of them as historical accounts of events that took place.

The flood is one. We know what we know about the evidence of the flood and the age of the Earth from Christians that set out to accumulate that evidence demonstrating the flood. They were good, honest men and didn't ignore what they found or try to pretend it away.

And if it never happened like it is described, what does it really matter?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree. I also find that the “bad apples” are few and far between and get all the attention like the Westbboro Baptist Church. It is unfortunate that those who are working and helping the drug addicts, prostitutes, the homeless, the needy, the lost and so much more don’t get the attention they deserve.

It’s today’s “bad news sells” that gets the front page.

Some of it's more like that old line "how much **** do you need in your sandwich before it's a **** sandwich?"

(BTW: the traditional answer is "any at all")

There are churches around me that run food banks and help the homeless but then also show up in movements aimed at hurting vulnerable kids. I don't think the one thing excuses the other.

Jeffrey Epstein donated a lot of money to charity, but that isn't the most important thing about him any more.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That kinda reminds me of what I said when I gave my life to Christ.

I remember thinking, “Either the Bible is false or true. I’m gong to believe it is true and test the sucker! I’ll find out soon enough whether it is true or false”.

So I would say it is all testable for those who have faith. I haven’t been able to prove it false.

Of course, if one approaches it as not true, they will never find the capacity of what is written. Like a person in a race that says, “I’ll NEVER be able to get the gold medal”. He never will.

Or like the quote, “If you believe you can do a thing or can’t, you are right”.

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick

The way you're describing your religious beliefs does not strike me as how people generally talk about objective facts.

 

[F1fan]

This is quite true. Many times it is Christians themselves that leave a bad taste in people’s mouths. I also know that there are wolves in sheep clothing masquerading as Christians which most people don’t realize

To my thinking this would be any Christian who interprets the Bible literally, and especially those who interpret Genesis literally. Any Bible story makes more sense if interpreted metaphorically.

To my mind salvation is not the idea that is common in Christianity, that it's something Christians get as a "gift" due to Jesus being executed. Rather, I suggest salvation is a state of mind that will come if a person follows a moral and compassionate attitude in life.

With the "gift" idea we see many Christians act inhumanely, corruptly, lie, cheat, kill, and they believe they are saved nonetheless and can get away with their acts. It's inexcusable that so many Christians reject facts and science when it contradicts their interpretation of Genesis. These aren't wise people. These are willing victims of religion. They are obedient to a false framework, and have such an emptiness that they seek more biased confirmation for their fslse beliefs.

It is no small miracle, IMV, that the Gospel continues to have an impact in spite of what Christians do.

The Gosvels re being used by Christian leaders to control and manipulate followers. There is nothing to feel good about in that fact.

That being said, I also find a ton of Christians that live the lifestyle, show the love by word and deed.

I would ask you for details and examples, but you seldom offer any in depth explanation. It's stunning how superficial Christian belief tends to be.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course, if one approaches it as not true, they will never find the capacity of what is written. Like a person in a race that says, “I’ll NEVER be able to get the gold medal”. He never will.

A: Hey, come run my race! There's a prize if you win!
B: What's the prize?
A: A gold medal! Solid gold. It's pretty big!
B: Awesome! Can I see it?
A: Not right now. Only at the end if you win.
B: But how do I know it's actually real?
A: Oh, it's real. Trust me - it'll be waiting for you at the end.

In any context but religion, it wouldn't be controversial at all to say that A is a con artist.