Can a believer...

[savagewind]

God is Truth, therefor what He says is Truth. If he inspires His word to be written down, then that word by definition is Truth. Though it doesn't mean it's equal to God, just that it came from God.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, we humans are imperfect. When we write things down, they are also imperfect (if coming from us). But those words are not equal to us, there just from us.

Our words are imperfect? Then there are two kinds of people. One kind writes down God's words and the other kind are us. There are not two kinds of people. If people's words are imperfect (you are correct there) then ALL people's words are imperfect even them who write the Bible

 

[JFish123]

That's fine..for you..but many do not believe that the Bible is the word of God. It contains some wisdom that Christ taught but beyond that, I find it too frustrating than not. Particularly with regard to Paulian dogma.

Well what's frustrating about it? Just curious

 

[savagewind]

What is the difference between the words of a believer and the words of, say, Jesus?

Both believe in God.
Both get their words directly from God.
Both use scripture.

Yet, Jesus (and Muhammad, and Joseph Smith) all got their words from God directly. Jesus only refersd to Hebrew scriptures when needed.

Yet, many believers depend on the scripture as if it IS God.

No apostle mistake scripture for Jesus. I am sure Muhammad would look at you funny for calling His written work the Creator.

Depending on scripture is fine when it doesnt become an idol of worship.

I think you mean they SAY they got their words from God directly. Jesus did.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

why do you think those others spoke god God as well? Just my curiosity is all.

Please rephrase. Grammar error I cant figure out.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think you mean they SAY they got their words from God directly. Jesus did.

Did they?

All believers say they do from then until today.

 

[JayJayDee]

That is a beuatiful and vibrant testimony. (I finally slept at 3am to wake up almost late for work!)

It's annoying when your brain won't switch off!! We need sleep for the brain to function, but there's too much to think about apparently.

God spoke to the prophets directly and their words are not mix matched.

They lived but only close to over 2,000 years ago. If they can hear Gods voice directly and talk to you without refering to hebrew scripture, why cant believers today?

Good question.

The way I see it, God had two periods of time when he had active prophets and had their words recorded, not just for the people of the time, but for us in the future.

The first was when Israel was formed into a nation. After their release from Egyptian slavery, they promised to obey the laws God gave to them. At Mt Sinai, He offered the nation a covenant (legally binding agreement) through his prophet Moses, that he would guide and protect them as long as they kept his commandments. They agreed to this and were bound by it as a nation.

Their forefather Abraham was also in a covenant relationship with God, who promised to produce the awaited Messiah in Abraham's family line. So Israel's history was recorded for posterity as part of the 'all scripture that was inspired of God and beneficial for teaching and reproving and setting things straight.' (2 Tim 3:16, 17) It it the measuring stick for all things and a record of what is expected of those who claim to worship the Creator.

God's blessing on Israel when they obeyed, resulted in a periods of peace and prosperity. But when they disobeyed (as they did often) his punishments were sometimes quite severe. But he never abandoned Israel because of his promise. According to God's timetable, the Messiah came to his nation...but what spiritual condition did he find the nation in? A very poor condition as it turned out.

It had been approximately 400 years since the last prophet was sent to correct God's people and now it was time to correct them again. But the Messiah was not just sent to Israel as a nation...he was sent specifically to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". We know that Jesus particularly targeted the sinners who had basically given up trying to keep God's law...or at least trying to keep the Pharisees very rigid interpretation of the law. Their oral traditions had all but buried the spirit of the law in their impossible legalities. Jesus came to lighten their load and to refresh them spiritually.
But he didn't fit the Pharisees expectation of the Messiah who in their mind was going to be powerful political leader who would liberate the nation from Roman oppression and establish his kingdom over Israel. They believed that this would elevate their status and set them up for positions of power in the kingdom.....how deluded they were!

So until Jesus came, Israel had been without prophets to correct them for a very long time. The spiritual derailment was obvious to God's son and when his ministry began, he was treated with skepticism at first. After a while though, the Pharisees realized that this Jesus was speaking against them and their teachings, so they began a campaign of defamation and persecution against him and his followers. Jesus told his followers to expect more of this. (John 15:18-21) We all know how it ended.

Jesus and his apostles were the last prophets that God sent. Again, the activities and teachings of these prophet were recorded for our benefit. Then the window closed. An apostasy was foretold and it happened just as the scriptures stated.

The complete word of God is the Bible. We do not need any other instruction......but we do need help in understanding it because of the deceiver's attempts to corrupt its teachings. Jesus warned about this in his parable of the "wheat and the weeds". Christianity was going to be corrupted in much the same way as Jusaism was. Jesus said that men would introduce their own ideas and teach "commands of men as doctrine". The weeds were not sown recently, but go back centuries. Most people have no idea that their worship is futile because it is not truth. Just as the Jews were convinced by their religious leaders that the truth was a lie, so the devil has duplicated his deception on Christendom.

When Jesus comes as judge, he tells these "Christians" who believe that they are doing good works, that he NEVER knew them.....NEVER means NOT EVER. So from its inception with Roman Carholicism, Jesus has never recognised Christendom as Christianity. It was corrupted from the beginning. This is why he calls them "workers of lawlessness". (Matt 7:21-23)

What about our time period makes us depended on scripture when prophets, who are human to, did not depend on it when spreading their testimonies?

The propensity in man to introduce things into their worship that do not belong is a recognised and an often repeated trait, so having one set of rules and one set of teachings via a written record instead of oral transmission greatly reduces the danger of the "Chinese Whispers" syndrome.

Add to that the propensity for the deceiver to add his own prophets into the mix and the situation would be worse than what it is now! Without some kind of reference from God himself, how could we ever make a decision about who to believe?

We are given choices about worship. Our own hearts determine what faith, or lack of it, we choose. God is reading hearts every day, so he is having his message preached in all the earth, "searching" for the "worthy ones" so that people can choose to accept the message or reject it. (Matt 10:11-15)

Just as some of the people in Jesus' day were not put off by the weight of public opinion, and the defamation put out by opposers, so people today are in the same boat. They were an unpopular and persecuted minority, but Jesus said that if some listened to him, they would listen to his disciples too. (John 15:20)

JW's are out in the preaching work every day, in every nation, but we aren't expecting a mass conversion......we will keep offering the message until "the end" just as Jesus said. (Matt 24:14)

We just hope that some respond....but we are not depressed or upset when they don't because Jesus said we had to "shake the dust off our feet" and keep preaching. This is what we do......

 

[savagewind]

Did they?

All believers say they do from then until today.

Of course not! All believers do not say that their teachings they have heard from God. I am a believer. I don't say it!

 

[savagewind]

Does fish know that men have added a word to his perfect written word the Bible?

 

[JFish123]

Please rephrase. Grammar error I cant figure out.

Lol my bad why do you think those other people like Muhammad, Joseph Smith, and Buluallah spoke for God as well?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's annoying when your brain won't switch off!! We need sleep for the brain to function, but there's too much to think about apparently.



Good question.

The way I see it, God had two periods of time when he had active prophets and had their words recorded, not just for the people of the time, but for us in the future.

The first was when Israel was formed into a nation. After their release from Egyptian slavery, they promised to obey the laws God gave to them. At Mt Sinai, He offered the nation a covenant (legally binding agreement) through his prophet Moses, that he would guide and protect them as long as they kept his commandments. They agreed to this and were bound by it as a nation.

Their forefather Abraham was also in a covenant relationship with God, who promised to produce the awaited Messiah in Abraham's family line. So Israel's history was recorded for posterity as part of the 'all scripture that was inspired of God and beneficial for teaching and reproving and setting things straight.' (2 Tim 3:16, 17) It it the measuring stick for all things and a record of what is expected of those who claim to worship the Creator.

God's blessing on Israel when they obeyed, resulted in a periods of peace and prosperity. But when they disobeyed (as they did often) his punishments were sometimes quite severe. But he never abandoned Israel because of his promise. According to God's timetable, the Messiah came to his nation...but what spiritual condition did he find the nation in? A very poor condition as it turned out.

It had been approximately 400 years since the last prophet was sent to correct God's people and now it was time to correct them again. But the Messiah was not just sent to Israel as a nation...he was sent specifically to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". We know that Jesus particularly targeted the sinners who had basically given up trying to keep God's law...or at least trying to keep the Pharisees very rigid interpretation of the law. Their oral traditions had all but buried the spirit of the law in their impossible legalities. Jesus came to lighten their load and to refresh them spiritually.
But he didn't fit the Pharisees expectation of the Messiah who in their mind was going to be powerful political leader who would liberate the nation from Roman oppression and establish his kingdom over Israel. They believed that this would elevate their status and set them up for positions of power in the kingdom.....how deluded they were!

So until Jesus came, Israel had been without prophets to correct them for a very long time. The spiritual derailment was obvious to God's son and when his ministry began, he was treated with skepticism at first. After a while though, the Pharisees realized that this Jesus was speaking against them and their teachings, so they began a campaign of defamation and persecution against him and his followers. Jesus told his followers to expect more of this. (John 15:18-21) We all know how it ended.

Jesus and his apostles were the last prophets that God sent. Again, the activities and teachings of these prophet were recorded for our benefit. Then the window closed. An apostasy was foretold and it happened just as the scriptures stated.

The complete word of God is the Bible. We do not need any other instruction......but we do need help in understanding it because of the deceiver's attempts to corrupt its teachings. Jesus warned about this in his parable of the "wheat and the weeds". Christianity was going to be corrupted in much the same way as Jusaism was. Jesus said that men would introduce their own ideas and teach "commands of men as doctrine". The weeds were not sown recently, but go back centuries. Most people have no idea that their worship is futile because it is not truth. Just as the Jews were convinced by their religious leaders that the truth was a lie, so the devil has duplicated his deception on Christendom.

When Jesus comes as judge, he tells these "Christians" who believe that they are doing good works, that he NEVER knew them.....NEVER means NOT EVER. So from its inception with Roman Carholicism, Jesus has never recognised Christendom as Christianity. It was corrupted from the beginning. This is why he calls them "workers of lawlessness". (Matt 7:21-23)



The propensity in man to introduce things into their worship that do not belong is a recognised and an often repeated trait, so having one set of rules and one set of teachings via a written record instead of oral transmission greatly reduces the danger of the "Chinese Whispers" syndrome.

Add to that the propensity for the deceiver to add his own prophets into the mix and the situation would be worse than what it is now! Without some kind of reference from God himself, how could we ever make a decision about who to believe?

We are given choices about worship. Our own hearts determine what faith, or lack of it, we choose. God is reading hearts every day, so he is having his message preached in all the earth, "searching" for the "worthy ones" so that people can choose to accept the message or reject it. (Matt 10:11-15)

Just as some of the people in Jesus' day were not put off by the weight of public opinion, and the defamation put out by opposers, so people today are in the same boat. They were an unpopular and persecuted minority, but Jesus said that if some listened to him, they would listen to his disciples too. (John 15:20)

JW's are out in the preaching work every day, in every nation, but we aren't expecting a mass conversion......we will keep offering the message until "the end" just as Jesus said. (Matt 24:14)

We just hope that some respond....but we are not depressed or upset when they don't because Jesus said we had to "shake the dust off our feet" and keep preaching. This is what we do......

Id have to reread...a thought ocurred. The time between the prophets and people today was not millions of years. They were human just as we. It is very extreme to have one time period where miracles happen just as the sun rises to now trying to find "implied" miracles when it does. It makes christianity very unbelievable when their is a sharp contrast of the past and today...as if 3,000 years ago people were able to hear Gods voice clearly. While today, with so many interpretations, believers find it hard to hear Gods voice. The laws of spiritual physics havent changed.

The communication gap alone speaks worlds of the bible as to whether it is true (to where miracles etc happen no matter the time period) or, Ill say, subjective (only true for that time period).

That doesnt make sense God would stop talking to people today...not as prophets but as believers.

Everyone who believed in God were believers and not all were prophets. Likewise today, why is it so drastically different?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Lol my bad why do you think those other people like Muhammad, Joseph Smith, and Buluallah spoke for God as well?

God spoke through them a He did through Jesus.

No one spoke for God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Of course not! All believers do not say that their teachings they have heard from God. I am a believer. I don't say it!

Im lost, lol. If their teachings didnt come from God, where did they come from?

Ok. I relooked.

If they didnt hear their teachings directly from God, how did God speak to them?

 

[JFish123]

God spoke through them a He did through Jesus.

No one spoke for God.

Though can God contradict Himself?
Jesus said that no one goes to heaven except through Him. That Jesus was Gods Son and died for your sins on a cross.
Muhammad rejected Jesus as Gods Son and dying on a cross.
Both cannot be true can they? Either he is Gods Son and died for your sins or He did not. Now a skeptic could say there both wrong, but they can't both be right as they contradict one another.

 

[JFish123]

God speaks to all of us through His word, though the Jehovahs Witnesses believe only through there organization can you accurately interpret the bible, which is unscriptural

 

[savagewind]

​

Im lost, lol. If their teachings didnt come from God, where did they come from?

Ok. I relooked.

If they didnt hear their teachings directly from God, how did God speak to them?

I don't understand this much. People can make things up. That is what they do.

 

[savagewind]

God speaks to all of us through His word, though the Jehovahs Witnesses believe only through there organization can you accurately interpret the bible, which is unscriptural

Do you believe it is possible to hear from God without the Bible? I think that is the theme of this thread.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I disagree that only one set of people can hear God's voice and not another set.

Taking that out, given God spoke directly to them and they to us. If God is speaking to His believers today, they should have the same inspired words that Muhammad, Jesus, and Joseph did in their day and place they heard and spread God's word.

Jesus of Latter Day Saints and Catholics are the only two that I know acknowledge that people today not only hear God's word but their inspired words are just as inspired as Moses or Paul. (With degree of importance but not total exclusion)

For example, your words, as you are a believer, I should trust the same as I would Paul's. As, both of you are human. Neither of you are God or His Son. Both of you are believers. Both of you are called to evangalize. And both are born again.

Your words dont need to be added in the Bible to have the same relevence. Why arent people speaking from God today as people back when?

Are believers today putting themselves below the very people who sat at the table with Jesus Not as a slave but as brothers and sisters in Christ?

Though can God contradict Himself?
Jesus said that no one goes to heaven except through Him. That Jesus was Gods Son and died for your sins on a cross.
Muhammad rejected Jesus as Gods Son and dying on a cross.
Both cannot be true can they? Either he is Gods Son and died for your sins or He did not. Now a skeptic could say there both wrong, but they can't both be right as they contradict one another.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't understand this much. People can make things up. That is what they do.

No different than biblical times, wouldnt you say? A person 3,000 years ago can lie just as people today.

 

[savagewind]

No different than biblical times, wouldnt you say? A person 3,000 years ago can lie just as people today.

I agree!

 

[savagewind]

They say if a teaching does not harmonize with the Bible then it isn't right. I say if a teaching does not harmonize with Jesus Christ son of Mary then it isn't right. With that in mind who views Jesus as God more? THEY say Jesus is God but they put the Bible before him. I do not do that.