Can a believer...

[Unveiled Artist]

I agree!

Someone ACTUALLY agrees with me!

Let me savor the moment.

 

[JayJayDee]

Id have to reread...a thought ocurred. The time between the prophets and people today was not millions of years. They were human just as we. It is very extreme to have one time period where miracles happen just as the sun rises to now trying to find "implied" miracles when it does. It makes christianity very unbelievable when their is a sharp contrast of the past and today...as if 3,000 years ago people were able to hear Gods voice clearly. While today, with so many interpretations, believers find it hard to hear Gods voice. The laws of spiritual physics havent changed.

We have to understand what the miracles in the Bible were for. When Moses was before Pharaoh, he was given supernatural abilities that Pharaoh's magic practicing priests were able to mimic. So supernatural abilities were not just the possession of God's servants. Genuine miracles have one source. Fake miracles have another.

When God's servants performed miracles, it was in order to accomplish something specific at that time. OT miracles were to prove to Israel that Jehovah was with them and could provide for them. When they demonstrated a lack of faith despite their miraculous deliverance from Egypt after the Ten Plagues and the parting of the Red Sea, God punished them by making them wander in the wilderness for 40 years, long enough for the faithless ones to die off. Yet he never stopped providing for them, giving them a perfect food and fresh water, in spite of the fact that they were in a waterless wilderness. He made sure that their clothing and their sandals never wore out, in all that time. And he protected them from enemies and wild animals. They had a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night to guide them and to remind them of Jehovah's presence and direction. So for that entire time Israel saw miracles every day, yet they took them for granted and still rebelled against their God.

The communication gap alone speaks worlds of the bible as to whether it is true (to where miracles etc happen no matter the time period) or, Ill say, subjective (only true for that time period).

That doesnt make sense God would stop talking to people today...not as prophets but as believers.

The miracles of the first century are very interesting also. They accomplished something specific with regard to Jesus as king of God's kingdom. Every miracle Jesus personally performed was a demonstration of what will take place on a grand scale when his kingdom rules this earth. Every sort of disease and infirmity will be instantly cured. The dead will be brought back to life and reunited with their families. God will educate the people by means of Jesus directing his earthly representatives.

The "gifts" that were manifested by the apostles and disciples such as the speaking in tongues...which was to preach to foreigners who came to Jerusalem in their own language was to spread the good news "to the most distant part of the earth". We all respond to our mother tongue better than to a foreign one. All the gifts were to promote some aspect of the preaching work and to demonstrate that God had shifted his spirit and backing onto the Christian arrangement after abandoning apostate Judasim. (Matt 23:37-39) His promise in connection with them was fulfilled. He provided their Messiah and his obligation to his covenant was completed.

So there was a time and a reason for the gifts....so they were to cease. Paul called the need to see miracles as "the traits of a child". He said the traits of a child had to give way to the traits of an adult. (1 Cor 13: 11) So when the Christian arrangement was established, with the death of the apostles, the gifts disappeared as they had served their purpose. The apostles were the ones who passed on the gifts to others. What was to remain to identify Christ's congregation? "Faith, hope and love". (1 Cor 13:13, John 13:34, 35)

The so called miracles of today are the work of the trickster...who mimics what God does by the use of uncanny power...an illegitimate use of it. The miracles are weak and often ineffective in comparison with the ones of the first century. There are no resurrections today. A lot of the "cures" are fakes and others can be put down to the placebo effect. Others fall into the realm of the ridiculous...weeping statues and the like. No miracle ever performed in the Bible was useless or promoted idolatry.

Everyone who believed in God were believers and not all were prophets. Likewise today, why is it so drastically different?

Because today we are living in "the time of the end". Daniel wrote all about it without having a clue about what or when the things he was writing about, would take place. He knew it was called "the time of the end" but nothing more. (Dan 12:4) He foresaw the enthronement of Jesus Christ in heaven (Dan 7:13, 14) and he also foretold that a 'cleansing, whitening and refining' was in store for God's people in this time period, yet those who refused the cleansing would be granted no understanding at all, counted as "wicked" in God's eyes. (Dan 12:9, 10) An abundance of knowledge was also foretold for this time. Who can deny that we have access to knowledge today on an unprecedented scale?

Why would a cleansing be necessary unless God's worship had become soiled? Why a whitening unless there was staining? And why a refining if there were no impurities to remove? It was again time to restore true worship.

This is what these times are all about....people are making their choices based on what they want to believe. God is not forcing anyone to do anything against their will. But our choices will determine our future....for better or worse.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You held me up until here:

The so called miracles of today are the work of the trickster...who mimics what God does by the use of uncanny power...an illegitimate use of it. The miracles are weak and often ineffective in comparison with the ones of the first century. There are no resurrections today. A lot of the "cures" are fakes and others can be put down to the placebo effect. Others fall into the realm of the ridiculous...weeping statues and the like. No miracle ever performed in the Bible was useless or promoted idolatry.

I dont seen how time period can make God's work yesterday real and pure and today a trick of some sort. That is like my saying that Paul is a better believer than people today. Its a harsh way to look at todays society who have ligitamite beliefs. Many christians say they have heard God; why should I disbelief them because what God told them that To Me contradicts scripture (since I am not Christ to interpret it 100 percent correct). That is not calling them lier; it is calling God a lier.

-
Also, people have been saying were at the end of times for yeeaars. I honestly feel its fear od death and death of the human race. Nothing supernatural behind cultural explanations of the process of life and living it.

Too much icing on the cake. Makes me ill

 

[arthra]

Carlita asked:

"Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Paul, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Bahaullah, and other prophets and people of God have heard God's voice directly and spoken for Him. This was not millions of centuries ago. This was practically yesterday.
If they can speak for God (or be God's reps) without refering to the Law, can a believer speak for God without refering to any scripture of their prophet or God?
Can we hear God through you and not through the prophets?

Taking out scripture intermedaries."

I don't think the Prophets you refer to were on this earth "practically yesterday". I wouldn't include "Paul" amongst Them either...Baha'is believe you can be inspired..anyone could be inspired but God has chosen certain Messengers and it is more than the kind of inspiration you or I might have on a given day... The Word of God that can be read and studied in our belief is more powerful than say the work of the average poet or artist.

 

[JayJayDee]

You held me up until here:

I dont seen how time period can make God's work yesterday real and pure and today a trick of some sort.

It's simple....God has a time and a reason for everything he does. When the miracles were performed in ancient times, there was a time and a reason for them. First of all it was in the establishment of Israel as God's nation....and then later, it was in the establishment of Christianity. These were windows of opportunity where God's prophets were sent to his people as a correction because they were spiritually going off the rails. Each time the people strayed, God sent his prophets to warn them of his actions over their errant behaviour and the prophets words were recorded for posterity.

Paul's words are a warning for us today, just as they were for first century Christians....

1 Corinthians 10:1-13...."For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.” Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it." (NASB)

This was a warning about what Israel did to incur God's displeasure. We could fall into the same way of thinking if we are not careful. We have to be mindful about where we place our confidence.....it could mean our lives.
The last prophet to speak to God's people was Jesus Christ. His teachings are preserved for us in the Bible. Contrary to popular belief....his teachings are not followed by Christendom.

That is like my saying that Paul is a better believer than people today. Its a harsh way to look at todays society who have ligitamite beliefs. Many christians say they have heard God; why should I disbelief them because what God told them that To Me contradicts scripture (since I am not Christ to interpret it 100 percent correct). That is not calling them lier; it is calling God a lier.

Actually, there is only one liar.....and it's so natural to him that he does it without a moment's hesitation. He is called "the father of the lie" because that is how he got Eve to disobey the only command God had in the garden that carried the death penalty. There was no other cause of death for humans, so we have to put the blame where it lies. The devil cannot force us to disobey our God...all he can do is make the diobedience look beneficial...appealing to self interest. He told the woman she would "be like God" but that was what he was after all along. He wanted worship and stooped to lying in order to get it. He even tried to get Jesus to worship him! He used all the bait that would have appealed to himself....but it didn't work. Jesus' loyalty and worship could not be bought. Can ours?

Also, people have been saying were at the end of times for yeeaars. I honestly feel its fear od death and death of the human race. Nothing supernatural behind cultural explanations of the process of life and living it.

At the end of the day...living or dying is all there is. There are no other options. We can qualify for everlasting life...not because we could ever earn it by works, but because we have obeyed the laws of our God uncomplainingly and without reservation, even though such obedience causes us hardship or results in ridicule.

Every faithful person mentioned in the Bible who was obedient, was blessed. Some who were reluctant, like Jonah, were taught the folly of disobedience with an object lesson...others who sinned gravely were shown mercy when genuine repentance was demonstrated, as in the case of King David. Still others had their lives taken without mercy. God is not sentimental...he is just. Because his justice is perfect, it is administered with all the factors taken into consideration. As a reader of hearts, God knows even what we think, not just what we do. There is no injustice on his part...ever.

Too much icing on the cake. Makes me ill

That is a pity. God doesn't want to make people sick...he desires all to live (2 Peter 3:9).....but only on his terms. If we want life only on our own terms, then there is no hope for us. There is no room in God's kingdom for disobedience. The nation of Israel is a warning example for all of us.....

2 Peter 3:9-13...."The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, it is clear what sort of people you should be in holy conduct and godliness as you wait for and earnestly desire the coming of the day of God. The heavens will be on fire and be dissolved because of it, and the elements will melt with the heat. But based on His promise, we wait for the new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness will dwell."

In order to live in the "new earth", God has to first cleanse the old one. He has already cleansed the heavens by evicting satan and his hordes down to the earth...this is why we are experiencing more and more troubles as these last days draw to a close and the devil is aware that he is running out of time. (Rev 12:7-12; 20:1-3)

The choices we make about our worship will determine the future for all of us.
The free will that God gave us....doesn't extend to the freedom to choose how or whom we worship. If we choose to worship false gods, we will have no part in God's kingdom, which is 'coming' ready or not.

 

[wizanda]

You are assuming here that Jesus read scripture but that is conjecture Carlita. He was a carpenter and most of the blue collar people did not learn to read. We have no historical evidence that Jesus could read.

He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

!

To explain this more simply: Yeshua pointed directly to God, and told people they didn't need to be like the Pharisees, straining over scriptures and putting their faith in dead books.... Yet Paul, John and Simon the stone (petros), reestablished the Pharisee religion under the new name of Christianity.
So there are people within it, who turn to the right direction by their heart, most are convinced that they're to use scriptures to teach, learn and speak from.... They don't follow Yeshua or even understand him, as they've not been taught to talk with God, they've been taught to be religious.

So the question is more, Can we teach religiously minded people how to hear God, instead of only listening to doGma?

 

[JayJayDee]

You are assuming here that Jesus read scripture but that is conjecture Carlita. He was a carpenter and most of the blue collar people did not learn to read. We have no historical evidence that Jesus could read.

By "historical evidence" do you mean other than the Bible?

Luke 4:16-22...."And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,And recovery of sight to the blind,To set free those who are oppressed, To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.” And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” And all were speaking well of Him, and wondering at the gracious words which were falling from His lips; and they were saying, “Is this not Joseph’s son?” (NASB)

(Apologies to wizanda for repeating his point.)

So even the carpenter's son could read. Parents were literate and taught their children. Higher learning was for the upper classes. The apostles were not learned (formally educated) men but they were literate because they wrote their letters which are contained in the Bible. (Acts 4:13)

But I do agree that for many, the Bible has become an idol and they really dont think about the teachings of Christ at all. And the same for all others. In my faith, the teachings of The Buddha were and are thought of as tools for the person to work with on their own journey and definitely not the word of God.

I believe that it makes sense for God to give all humanity the same directives and laws. They can then use these as tools for spiritual growth as well. Most people don't, however.

It is a fact that many "Christians" ignore those teachings of Jesus which cause them discomfort.....the one on marriage and divorce comes to mind (Matt 5:32)....as does loving one's enemy. (Matt 5:44) We cannot love our enemies by making war with them.

If the truth is inconvenient to their worldview, they are easily discarded as being of no consequence. But they must be of consequence to God, or he would not have included it in Christ's teachings. (John 7:16)

 

[JoStories]

Well what's frustrating about it? Just curious

Mostly because it is so opposite what Christ taught. Paul did not know Christ and his writings prove that, at least to me.

 

[JoStories]

Lol my bad why do you think those other people like Muhammad, Joseph Smith, and Buluallah spoke for God as well?

Why do you think they didn't? God is not limited, which, IMO, your faith seems to make God seem so. God could and likely did speak to people through a myriad of faiths. Not just yours.

 

[JoStories]

By "historical evidence" do you mean other than the Bible?

Luke 4:16-22...."And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,And recovery of sight to the blind,To set free those who are oppressed, To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.” And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” And all were speaking well of Him, and wondering at the gracious words which were falling from His lips; and they were saying, “Is this not Joseph’s son?” (NASB)

(Apologies to wizanda for repeating his point.)

So even the carpenter's son could read. Parents were literate and taught their children. Higher learning was for the upper classes. The apostles were not learned (formally educated) men but they were literate because they wrote their letters which are contained in the Bible. (Acts 4:13)



I believe that it makes sense for God to give all humanity the same directives and laws. They can then use these as tools for spiritual growth as well. Most people don't, however.

It is a fact that many "Christians" ignore those teachings of Jesus which cause them discomfort.....the one on marriage and divorce comes to mind (Matt 5:32)....as does loving one's enemy. (Matt 5:44) We cannot love our enemies by making war with them.

If the truth is inconvenient to their worldview, they are easily discarded as being of no consequence. But they must be of consequence to God, or he would not have included it in Christ's teachings. (John 7:16)

The Bible is not historical proof. I was asking for historical proof, such as Tacitus, Josephus, and even those are very hotly contested. You can believe what you want but from an historical theological POV, its not true proof.

 

[Muffled]

Which scripture? Are you certain that God would limit itself to only speak to Christians? Why not the Vedas, Upanishads, etc? Maybe we should take Thomas to heart who said that if you wanted to find God, you should lift a stone or split a piece of wood.

I believe God speaks to those who will listen.

I believe that would be the Bible and Qu'ran. The Vedas appear to be man's knowledge of God but the inspiration for it is difficult to identify. The Uphanishads are man's wisdom and not always correct.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I hope this wont hinder your future point, but I am not well versed in scripture to agree or rebuttal your scripture points...especially if it is more than what my question or question or comment asked for. I know scripture helps your points. If you can post the verses links ane not full verse that would help.

How does time period (actual time) make believers much better than those today?

Christianity is not millionsn of years old. It was practically yesterday compared to other world faiths that are older. However "age should not" dictate what is true and whether a believer is lying because he says he literally heard God (all because of time period.). If he was a believer 3,000 years ago I bet no one call him a trickster.

I also notice the-calling someone a lier based on time-is in the states. In other countries, spiritual experiences (NOT from the devil) happen all the time.

Also, how does the Isrealite history and God's warning proove or disprove my point that time period does nothing to make believers' experiences false today and true yesterday?

When God talks to people today and that one person out ten is telling the truth, satan is not involved. To say they are lying because of time period is calling God a lier NOT the person and not satan.

The end of times story has been going on for year. It probably wont end until no human is left living to convince us that "today is the time evil has come amuck. We are living in the worse times (which I find the inquisition one of the worse and thats back then) where people are killing more (no more if not less then the past)..." Its a religious way of expressing fear of death. People yesterday and in scripture are not special. It applies to them too.

"If we are living only on our terms there is no hope for us" ~Jay (near bottom)

That is horrible to say. No offense, and how you view others who do not agree with your worldview so negative? Thats sickning and it doesnt make me and anyone who is listening to your belief views want to come to Christ. People come to Christ and see the good in God so much that their worldview is that people are not hopeless, being tricked, etc but will one day be called by God.

Anyway. My point is time period should not deter the validity of believers experiences that go beyond abstract feelings of elation but miracle ones no one today will believe but that person "and" God.

It's simple....God has a time and a reason for everything he does. When the miracles were performed in ancient times, there was a time and a reason for them. First of all it was in the establishment of Israel as God's nation....and then later, it was in the establishment of Christianity. These were windows of opportunity where God's prophets were sent to his people as a correction because they were spiritually going off the rails. Each time the people strayed, God sent his prophets to warn them of his actions over their errant behaviour and the prophets words were recorded for posterity.

Paul's words are a warning for us today, just as they were for first century Christians....

1 Corinthians 10:1-13...."For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.” Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it." (NASB)

This was a warning about what Israel did to incur God's displeasure. We could fall into the same way of thinking if we are not careful. We have to be mindful about where we place our confidence.....it could mean our lives.
The last prophet to speak to God's people was Jesus Christ. His teachings are preserved for us in the Bible. Contrary to popular belief....his teachings are not followed by Christendom.



Actually, there is only one liar.....and it's so natural to him that he does it without a moment's hesitation. He is called "the father of the lie" because that is how he got Eve to disobey the only command God had in the garden that carried the death penalty. There was no other cause of death for humans, so we have to put the blame where it lies. The devil cannot force us to disobey our God...all he can do is make the diobedience look beneficial...appealing to self interest. He told the woman she would "be like God" but that was what he was after all along. He wanted worship and stooped to lying in order to get it. He even tried to get Jesus to worship him! He used all the bait that would have appealed to himself....but it didn't work. Jesus' loyalty and worship could not be bought. Can ours?



At the end of the day...living or dying is all there is. There are no other options. We can qualify for everlasting life...not because we could ever earn it by works, but because we have obeyed the laws of our God uncomplainingly and without reservation, even though such obedience causes us hardship or results in ridicule.

Every faithful person mentioned in the Bible who was obedient, was blessed. Some who were reluctant, like Jonah, were taught the folly of disobedience with an object lesson...others who sinned gravely were shown mercy when genuine repentance was demonstrated, as in the case of King David. Still others had their lives taken without mercy. God is not sentimental...he is just. Because his justice is perfect, it is administered with all the factors taken into consideration. As a reader of hearts, God knows even what we think, not just what we do. There is no injustice on his part...ever.



That is a pity. God doesn't want to make people sick...he desires all to live (2 Peter 3:9).....but only on his terms. If we want life only on our own terms, then there is no hope for us. There is no room in God's kingdom for disobedience. The nation of Israel is a warning example for all of us.....

2 Peter 3:9-13...."The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, it is clear what sort of people you should be in holy conduct and godliness as you wait for and earnestly desire the coming of the day of God. The heavens will be on fire and be dissolved because of it, and the elements will melt with the heat. But based on His promise, we wait for the new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness will dwell."

In order to live in the "new earth", God has to first cleanse the old one. He has already cleansed the heavens by evicting satan and his hordes down to the earth...this is why we are experiencing more and more troubles as these last days draw to a close and the devil is aware that he is running out of time. (Rev 12:7-12; 20:1-3)

The choices we make about our worship will determine the future for all of us.
The free will that God gave us....doesn't extend to the freedom to choose how or whom we worship. If we choose to worship false gods, we will have no part in God's kingdom, which is 'coming' ready or not.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Though can God contradict Himself?
Jesus said that no one goes to heaven except through Him. That Jesus was Gods Son and died for your sins on a cross.
Muhammad rejected Jesus as Gods Son and dying on a cross.
Both cannot be true can they? Either he is Gods Son and died for your sins or He did not. Now a skeptic could say there both wrong, but they can't both be right as they contradict one another.

God is not constrained to one belief. People want God to fit their cultural world views. God can speak to anyone He wants. He does not need a specific book to do so. Discrediting another persons experiences with God is putting God in a box. That is wrong.

 

[JoStories]

I believe God speaks to those who will listen.

I believe that would be the Bible and Qu'ran. The Vedas appear to be man's knowledge of God but the inspiration for it is difficult to identify. The Uphanishads are man's wisdom and not always correct.

And I would disagree strongly. What about the Teachings of the Buddha or the Tao Te Ching? Or any of the other myriad sacred texts that abound? The Vedas and the Upanishads were fodder for the Tanakh and the NT. I assume you know this. As was the Epic of Gilgamesh among others. The Bible, while important, was compiled long after the other texts and contain, IMO, just as much of the voice of God as others.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

So even the carpenter's son could read. Parents were literate and taught their children. Higher learning was for the upper classes. The apostles were not learned (formally educated) men but they were literate because they wrote their letters which are contained in the Bible. (Acts 4:13)

It is a well known fact that with the exception of 7 Epistles of Paul, who was not an Apostle, none of the books of the NT claiming to have been written by the original 12 Apostles could have been written by them. Its called science. The historical authors of most NT books are UNKNOWN. Look it up.

 

[JoStories]

It is a well known fact that with the exception of 7 Epistles of Paul, who was not an Apostle, none of the books of the NT claiming to have been written by the original 12 Apostles could have been written by them. Its called science. The historical authors of most NT books are UNKNOWN. Look it up.

Its only partly science. A goodly part is serious historical research with the ability to read at least 2 to 3 ancient languages. But what you say here is true, however, most theologians, myself included, will say that they are anecdotal accounts that may or may not be accurate. There is enough historicity to indicate that some is accurate. And btw, what evidence do you have that Paul actually wrote the epistles? I loathe those books but I have found no clear data to support such an assertion.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

Its only partly science. A goodly part is serious historical research with the ability to read at least 2 to 3 ancient languages. But what you say here is true, however, most theologians, myself included, will say that they are anecdotal accounts that may or may not be accurate. There is enough historicity to indicate that some is accurate. And btw, what evidence do you have that Paul actually wrote the epistles? I loathe those books but I have found no clear data to support such an assertion.

My mistake. Seven of the Epistles believed to have been written by Paul, are probably written by the same author. Whoever that was. My guess is Marcion.

 

[JayJayDee]

It is a well known fact that with the exception of 7 Epistles of Paul, who was not an Apostle, none of the books of the NT claiming to have been written by the original 12 Apostles could have been written by them. Its called science. The historical authors of most NT books are UNKNOWN. Look it up.

Paul was most certainly an apostle but not one of the 12. His assignment was as "an apostle to the nations"
"Apostle" simply means "one sent forth". Jesus too is called an apostle. (Heb 3:1) I think you need to get your facts straight.

Who said the NT books could not have been written by the apostles? What "well known fact" is that?....and who made the assertion? Is science now a replacement for God...it appears so for many...not for me though. I will take the word of God over the word of men any day.

The authors of the NT books are identified for the most part by themselves or by the things they wrote about. The apostle John for example never says that he is John but simply identifies himself as 'the one whom Jesus loved'. Since John was the one reclining in the 'bosom position' at mealtimes (the favored position) and he was the one to whom Jesus entrusted the care of his mother before he died, it is clear that John wrote the books assigned to him.

You are free to believe whatever you like, but your assertions do not hold water IMO.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

1. Anderson 2007, p. 19."These facts pose a major problem for the traditional view of John's authorship, and they are one of the key reasons critical scholars reject it."

2. Lindars, 1990, p. 20."It is thus important to see the reasons why the traditional identification is regarded by most scholars as untenable."

3. The New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible: Volume 3 Abingdon Press, 2008. p. 362 "Presently, few commentators would argue that a disciple of Jesus actually wrote the Fourth Gospel,..."

4. Marilyn Mellowes The Gospel of John From Jesus to Christ: A Portrait of Jesus' World. PBS 2010-11-3. "Tradition has credited John, the son of Zebedee and an apostle of Jesus, with the authorship of the fourth gospel. Most scholars dispute this notion;..."

5. D. A. Carson, Douglas J. Moo. An introduction to the New Testament. Zondervan; 2 New edition. 2005. Pg 233 “The fact remains that despite support for Johannine authorship by a few front rank scholars in this century and by many popular writers, a large majority of contemporary scholars reject this view.”


Jesus was called an Apostle in Hebrews. Do you know who wrote Hebrews? Go online and find out. Your info comes from only one source.
How do you know that John was the one reclining in the bosom position? Same source?
The only original followers of Jesus to refer to Paul as an Apostle are Luke and once by Barnabas, who was quoted by Luke. Pauls only claim to being an Apostle is his own self-proclaiming.

 

[JoStories]

My mistake. Seven of the Epistles believed to have been written by Paul, are probably written by the same author. Whoever that was. My guess is Marcion.

Yes, I wondered about that. However, Marcion? He did not believe that Christ was the messiah. he rejected the Christ and thought he was sent by a monad, a concept from eastern Buddhist principles. He is considered more Gnostic than Christian. Do you really think he was the one who wrote these? His "Antithesis" does not make me think this.