Can God have a Son?

[tarekabdo12]

God won't have a Son because God is the most complete and completeness is one not more than one. This is because the best is just one and there is no better than the best. The best is one so if God is going to beget another Son so The son must be as Him, the best. Since the best is only 1 so the same God is present again with the same power, views and actions so nothing happens, it's a ZERO action. God must be totally complete to make and rule this intricate world as any deviation from this complete nature will lead to a detrimental effect and God won't have already been able to create this intricate world. This means that we won't have already in this world.

 

[tarekabdo12]

You pray. To a stone. In a house.

The fact that you see it different is your own bias.

Argumentation theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We believe its a stone that can't give us any favor by itself so how come we worship it?

 

[Breathe]

We believe its a stone that can't give us any favor by itself so how come we worship it?

Is that different for some who pray towards icons, though?
Not all who pray with icons pray TO the icons themselves, but use them as a focal point. Is there any difference, really?

 

[tarekabdo12]

Is that different for some who pray towards icons, though?
Not all who pray with icons pray TO the icons themselves, but use them as a focal point. Is there any difference, really?

The icon you mean doesn't have a representation for anybody. The Kaaba is not God. This is the difference, it's a place where Muslims direct to not worship for itself. But, people make a statue which they say belong to someone who is already dead and worship the statue instead. You also don't know that if a Muslim can't know where the Kaaba is or you are in a moving place[eg.a ship],he can direct anywhere because God is not the Kaaba itself. It's just a direction and a sacred place.

 

[tarekabdo12]

The Kaaba itself, however, is a great place. You can realize this when you know that birds don't fly above the Kaaba, they only rotate around it. Moreover, planes can't fly above It, as well.

 

[not nom]

You can realize this when you know that birds don't fly above the Kaaba, they only rotate around it.

video or it didn't happen...

 

[Breathe]

The icon you mean doesn't have a representation for anybody. The Kaaba is not God. This is the difference, it's a place where Muslims direct to not worship for itself. But, people make a statue which they say belong to someone who is already dead and worship the statue instead.

But that's misunderstanding icon veneration, really. It's a common one, though.

Generally from my experience, icons aren't worshipped as deities in their own rights, they're "telephones" to God or gods -- something which makes it easier for people to focus on

People don't worship the statues, regardless of them being saints, avatars, or even depictions of God; people generally understand the statues are just statues, but their representation is powerful for the person, and helps people 'connect' better to God. Even in the case of depictions of God, they are not always taken literally by people, but meant to be metaphors of the powers of the divine/deities.

The worship of saints is not always as "intercessors", as such, but praying to someone for additional support in their prayers, such as "Pray this for me", as opposed to "Oh Saint something, bless me with this".

You also don't know that if a Muslim can't know where the Kaaba is or you are in a moving place[eg.a ship],he can direct anywhere because God is not the Kaaba itself. It's just a direction and a sacred place.

I'm well aware of that, actually - please don't presume so much. I live in an area with a significant Muslim population, and I've spoken to many Muslims, including my local imam, and even online fatwa websites.

But, how does this really differ from the Kaaba? The more one learns of it, the smaller the similarities are, in my opinion.

 

[tarekabdo12]

video or it didn't happen...

Go there and see, this is sth that can't be recorded on video. They can't record for 24 hrs to prove that birds wont fly over the Kaaba. You can search the net yourself or ask sb you trust who went there or intending to do so. Or you can simply refuse believing in it, this is not my issue.

 

[tarekabdo12]

But that's misunderstanding icon veneration, really. It's a common one, though.

Generally from my experience, icons aren't worshipped as deities in their own rights, they're "telephones" to God or gods -- something which makes it easier for people to focus on

People don't worship the statues, regardless of them being saints, avatars, or even depictions of God; people generally understand the statues are just statues, but their representation is powerful for the person, and helps people 'connect' better to God. Even in the case of depictions of God, they are not always taken literally by people, but meant to be metaphors of the powers of the divine/deities.

The worship of saints is not always as "intercessors", as such, but praying to someone for additional support in their prayers, such as "Pray this for me", as opposed to "Oh Saint something, bless me with this".




I'm well aware of that, actually - please don't presume so much. I live in an area with a significant Muslim population, and I've spoken to many Muslims, including my local imam, and even online fatwa websites.

But, how does this really differ from the Kaaba? The more one learns of it, the smaller the similarities are, in my opinion.

I understand that you are a kind of person who poses fruitful arguments that bears true ideology because I see you don't argue for just arguing, you carry a way of thinking and this is sth good. Anyway, Muslims believe that God is above any grade of depiction. He's greater than any creatures on earth and doesn't look like it as He's far more better and complete than what He's created. This means that we can't use a statue as an icon for the Great God since the statue is localized and God is not. The statue is powerless while God is not. The statue doesn't deliver the meaning of the God who is greater than the whole galaxies and the entire universe. In this manner, the statue is not representative for God and people will be shifted away from the idea of the great God to this powerless and useless statue. These icons actually degrade God and His true representation in peoples' minds. It's just like when sb makes a statue to represent you as an animal so this animal won't represent you or the meaning of your existence and will engrave a false meaning about your entity. Since God is far more great than a mind can depict so it's not right to do so. The best representation for God is when you look at the complexity of His creation from the simple atom or cell till the great complex world of galaxies , planets and moons.

 

[not nom]

Go there and see, this is sth that can't be recorded on video.

They can't record for 24 hrs to prove that birds wont fly over the Kaaba.

no, but if they circle whenever they fly there, it should be very, very easy to get video of that. there would be documentaries. you know, beautiful movies with music. if that was a fact, it would be exploited mercilessly.

You can search the net yourself or ask sb you trust who went there or intending to do so.

I did. I found nothing but muslims who just repeat what you said. nothing credible, not even anything remotely serious.

there are tons of "documentaries" on things like ghosts or the bermuda triangle -- if it was physically impossible to fly over the kaaba, why does that not interest anyone?

how far up does that extend? it surely doesn't seem to apply to satellites? lol...

Or you can simply refuse believing in it, this is not my issue.

heh!! you are refusing to give me even a *shred* of evidence, and I'm asking for it. you call that refusal? you've got it upside down.

 

[tarekabdo12]

no, but if they circle whenever they fly there, it should be very, very easy to get video of that. there would be documentaries. you know, beautiful movies with music. if that was a fact, it would be exploited mercilessly.



I did. I found nothing but muslims who just repeat what you said. nothing credible, not even anything remotely serious.

there are tons of "documentaries" on things like ghosts or the bermuda triangle -- if it was physically impossible to fly over the kaaba, why does that not interest anyone?

how far up does that extend? it surely doesn't seem to apply to satellites? lol...



heh!! you are refusing to give me even a *shred* of evidence, and I'm asking for it. you call that refusal? you've got it upside down.

Yes, I can't and I don't have to since you have the liberty to believe or not. I have may people whom I know who had been there. Moreover, it is not the main stem for the belief in Islam and it won't add much.

 

[not nom]

Yes, I can't and I don't have to since you have the liberty to believe or not.

actually, when you make a claim without any evidence to it, I have no choice other than to not believe it.

I have may people whom I know who had been there.

so you say you don't have to prove it -- then try to prove it with such an appeal to hearsay?! make up your mind.

but don't blame it on me.

if I tell you I have a hat made of 3 bicycles, and refuse to show you any evidence, and then complain how it's your choice wether you believe me -- then that'd be utterly transparent and very likely to take place in a kindergarden or something.

 

[tarekabdo12]

You can just check:
Tooth Brushing between Medicine and Islam


Tooth Brushing between Medicine and Islam


Talbina : an Advice from the Prophet and a Scientific Truth

Talbina : an Advice from the Prophet and a Scientific Truth
Blood eating is banned in islam

Blood eating is banned in islam
Sex Determination In Mankind As Inimitably Cited By The Qur'an-

HENNA-

The Pork Forbiddance


Medicine
prophet Mohummed predicts sexually transmitted diseases

prophet Mohummed predicts sexually transmitted diseases


The Holy Quran Refers to the Atmosphere

The Holy Quran Refers to the Atmosphere


Haman as mentioned in the Holy Quran


Haman as mentioned in the Holy Quran

The mentioning of the old Egyptian rulers in the Glorious Quran and the difference between the word


The mentioning of the old Egyptian rulers in the Glorious Quran and the difference between the word


The Victory of Byzantium

The Victory of Byzantium

Prophet Mohummed predicts The Turkic-Mongols fight against Moslems

Prophet Mohummed predicts The Turkic-Mongols fight against Moslems

Prophet Mohammed predicts The CLimatic change in the Arab Lands

Prophet Mohammed predicts The CLimatic change in the Arab Lands

The Holy Quran on the darkness of the universe

The Holy Quran on the darkness of the universe
From it We produce green substance out of which We produce grains upon each other

From it We produce green substance out of which We produce grains upon each other
The Miracle in Ants

The Miracle in Ants

New studies reveal scientific miracles in the fly Hadith

New studies reveal scientific miracles in the fly Hadith
Fingerprints and the human identity

Fingerprints and the human identity
The Formation of Rain

The Formation of Rain



Islam carries evidence that can support its tenet. You can review the site for more information. Also, Islam is so simple. It involves the presence of a creator, messengers and manners. It's just that which makes it easy to adopt as a way of life. It doesn't contradict science since the Qura'n has pointed to the roundness of earth, the movement of the earth, sun and the moon in orbits and didn't mention the time of creation of the world or its end or when Noah was present on earh. We were also ordered to search in all fields of science.
According to robust evidences [www.55a.net], the Quran is a Miraculous Book that was actually revealed to Mohamed along 23 years of his mission and has been kept as was revealed up to now. No corruptions have touched the Quran as Islam was born strong in the full light of history and its strength had never been ceased or decayed in any time The language of Quran, the Arabic language, is still spoken by more than 500 millions as was spoken since more than 14 centuries. More than 1500 millions still adhere to the religion of Islam and thousands of new followers are added to this number every day. The logical sequencing and reasoning of every verse in Quran are found in a heavenly fashion that could not be attained by an Arabic Bedouin, as Mohamed, or any group of scientists. The great Islamic law and the Islamic legislations as stemmed from the Quran represent a strong base for building an ideal society and strong state. Most of the modern civil laws are extracted from the Islamic law. There are many prophecies in the Bible that Mohamed, as a grandson of Ishmael who came from the mount Paran, would be the seal of the God’s messengers and prophets [http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=235]. There are several verses in the Quran which some modern scientists have interpreted as being compatible with modern sciences as the spherical shape of the earth [39:5], the stages of embryo growth in the womb [39:12-16], expansion of the universe [51:47], Big Bang [21:30] and Big Crunch [21:104] [http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=165] theories, the balanced cycles of the elements on the earth [15-19], the photosynthesis processes in the plants [36:80], the formation of clouds [24:43] and the wind functions[30:48, 15:22], etc. Similarly, there are several verses in the Quran which some geographers [30:3], historicists [28:38], geologists [35:27, 78:7], astronomers [6:97, 25:61] and psychologists [13:28] have interpreted as being compatible also with their modern discoveries.

 

[tarekabdo12]

actually, when you make a claim without any evidence to it, I have no choice other than to not believe it.



so you say you don't have to prove it -- then try to prove it with such an appeal to hearsay?! make up your mind.

but don't blame it on me.

if I tell you I have a hat made of 3 bicycles, and refuse to show you any evidence, and then complain how it's your choice wether you believe me -- then that'd be utterly transparent and very likely to take place in a kindergarden or something.

I'm not blaming anything on you, I respect your opinion anyway.

 

[not nom]

that's all interesting, but none of that has anything to do with your claims about the kaaba and that actually interests me hehe. I love birds. I'd believe birds sooner than I believe humans ^^

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

To tarekabdo12: Two questions: 1. if God is so complete, then why create something in the first place? If God is complete, he would have no need to create anything. Since he did, this implies that he is not complete, and by this logic, having son is not out of the question; and 2. (this is more of an aside, off-topic, observation), for every 1 thing that Muslims believe is scientific in the Quran, Buddhism has ten things.

 

[not nom]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/124656-isaiah-9-1-7-us-child.html

^ if God "can't have a son", why is human prophesized called God?

 

[Photonic]

We don't pray to the Kaaba, we just take it a unitary direction for our prayer just when Christians and Jews direct towards Jerusalem since it's a sacred place.

Prophet Muhammad said before that the Muslim himself is more important than the Kaaba despite being sacred as a place which means that the Kaaba is not as important as you depict.

So now that you know the direction, even if it was all removed, you wouldn't mind?

 

[tarekabdo12]

To tarekabdo12: Two questions: 1. if God is so complete, then why create something in the first place? If God is complete, he would have no need to create anything. Since he did, this implies that he is not complete, and by this logic, having son is not out of the question; and 2. (this is more of an aside, off-topic, observation), for every 1 thing that Muslims believe is scientific in the Quran, Buddhism has ten things.

1. God created people with freedom of choice since there would be a creature that can choose to follow God with his free will not because his nature is just to do so. Some people chose to follow God and His good principles and thus deserved to be on the top of His creation and others did the contrary. There is a great difference from what you like to see and what you are in need to have. God is complete thus He doesn't feel to lose if someone disobeys His orders. Obeying God's orders is a favor for those who obey them not for God himself.

In Islam there are two phrases that I remember their meaning but not the same phrases;

1st God says that if All those on the world would have the heart of the best man, this wont increase my power and if the contrary happens this wont decrease my powers. You, people who are in need of Me.

2nd God was present before the creation as He is infinite and at a time the whole world will end and Nothing except God will remain.

Doing sth doesn't only mean I need but it means also I like it. Liking sth is not a degradation but a you are complete when you like and do what's good. Building a great world and reckoning people for what they did is not a shame or a need, it's a part of God. God is a creator while creativity and management of the created structures is a part of His complete nature not a need. Just as when you help a weak person, you may not be in need for this but it's a part of a good nature and make you approach completeness.

In addition, You didn't mention how incomplete He is-as you see-. If He was in need of the creation so He can't have been there before the creation . No God before the creation = no creation = zero and this is not present now.




2- I didn't hear about and if it's true it doesn't falsify the Islamic religion. In fact, I believe that all religions are originally one and that's what Islam says, as well. However, people modified them with time and inserted parts which weren't of the original religion. So, most of the widespread religions in the world share the same basis with modifications. Prophets came to rectify these modifications that occur with time. Islam retained its book without change and the Qura'n is still the same since Muhammed-PBUH-. Before Othman wrote it, the Qura'n was knoiwn by nost of the Muslims and they prayed with it for 23 years with Muhammed and knew it by hard so it wasn't possible for anyone to insert his modifications. They also used every part of it in their lives so the deciet is impossible. After it was written, the books prevailed all over the world and the Qura'n that Othamn-3rd Muslim Kaliph-ordered to be written is still present uptill now.

Moreover, Islam is so simple. You believe in 1 God, all Prophets and follow morals. It's not sophisticated and can be accepted by the brain easily.

 

[tarekabdo12]

So now that you know the direction, even if it was all removed, you wouldn't mind?

And why would we do so, it does no harm. It's a mark for the direction.