Can humanity surprise God?

[Beaudreaux]

Maybe because God needed to sift the sand and get gold out of this test,

For clarity, would you mind restating that directly and without the metaphor? Metaphors are vivid, but often fall prey to misinterpretation.

 

[True Faith]

this world if full of wonders. religions teach us that god alone run this entire universe. It's hard to believe how god can alone can run and rule this entire universe, but god knows how, scientifically, it's not possible, similarly, God knows how he can solve puzzle of contradictions of Having future knowledge and same time give free will to humans. Only god knows how to do it.
We can surprise to false gods only. True god knows everything about his creations.

 

[Beaudreaux]

this world if full of wonders. religions teach us that god alone run this entire universe. It's hard to believe how god can alone can run and rule this entire universe, but god knows how, scientifically, it's not possible, similarly, God knows how he can solve puzzle of contradictions of Having future knowledge and same time give free will to humans. Only god knows how to do it.
We can surprise to false gods only. True god knows everything about his creations.

Well, I suppose that's one approach, and lots of people do it. There are loads of other people who, like you, also know that their religion is irrational, but they go ahead and believe it anyway "just because". Personally, I can't cling to demonstrably irrational ideas no matter how comforting they might be. I guess you and I are wired differently.

One question though. If so much of what God is falls under the "can't be understood rationally" tent, why bother studying God?

 

[True Faith]

Well, I suppose that's one approach, and lots of people do it. There are loads of other people who, like you, also know that their religion is irrational, but they go ahead and believe it anyway "just because". Personally, I can't cling to demonstrably irrational ideas no matter how comforting they might be. I guess you and I are wired differently.

One question though. If so much of what God is falls under the "can't be understood rationally" tent, why bother studying God?

@bold we should study about God so, we understand how it's possible for god to give free will to humans and knowing future same time without any contradictions :yes:

 

[Beaudreaux]

@bold we should study about God so, we understand how it's possible for god to give free will to humans and knowing future same time without any contradictions :yes:

:no: Didn't you JUST say that only God can understand that? You claimed that the problem of foreknowlege and free will was a mystery that humans cannot understand. I ask again, what's the point of studying God when you readily admit that He is not understandable with human reasoning?

 

[True Faith]

:no: Didn't you JUST say that only God can understand that? You claimed that the problem of foreknowlege and free will was a mystery that humans cannot understand. I ask again, what's the point of studying God when you readily admit that He is not understandable with human reasoning?

It is our human mind's limitations we can't understand or get clear proof of unseens. you've to believe and trust God and his scriptures which is called FAITH. if god said there are Angels, life after death and day of judgment etc stuff, if we just use our brain, I don't think those after death stuff we could prove in this world, which mean people stop following religions which claim unseen, unscientific proved things to believe.

God informed us thru his scriptures and thru Messengers, if we have faith and trust, we can accept and follow that religion, once we accept religion, we should have faith 100% in that religion, if we have any doubt, we should quit that religion.

 

[Gauss]

For clarity, would you mind restating that directly and without the metaphor? Metaphors are vivid, but often fall prey to misinterpretation.

I meant that the cosmos has had a cycle of formation, stasis and degeneration. Now we are at the end of degenerion and we need to shift out the bad parts before we form a new cosmos. Some people will welcome the change and some will not. The change will come no matter what so one had better welcome it.

 

[Beaudreaux]

It is our human mind's limitations we can't understand or get clear proof of unseens. you've to believe and trust God and his scriptures which is called FAITH. if god said there are Angels, life after death and day of judgment etc stuff, if we just use our brain, I don't think those after death stuff we could prove in this world, which mean people stop following religions which claim unseen, unscientific proved things to believe.

Wait. You mean that we would have to think for ourselves and use reason? SIGN ME UP!

God informed us thru his scriptures and thru Messengers, if we have faith and trust, we can accept and follow that religion, once we accept religion, we should have faith 100% in that religion, if we have any doubt, we should quit that religion.

You know there are hundreds of religions out there, each proposing things that reason tells us are not possible. How did you happen to select your particular irrational belief system from all the ones available?

 

[Beaudreaux]

I meant that the cosmos has had a cycle of formation, stasis and degeneration. Now we are at the end of degenerion and we need to shift out the bad parts before we form a new cosmos. Some people will welcome the change and some will not. The change will come no matter what so one had better welcome it.

Oh...

But your metaphor was offered as an explanation as to why God would create a world that he knew would turn bad and need to be flooded to kill all life except for Noah and the passengers on the ark. How does this cosmos-cycle stuff address that?

 

[sojourner]

Come back when you have a model of General Relativity that supports that. According to GR, spacetime is a perfectly "linear" (if such a term makes any sense) 4D structure, which is immutable.

Since God exists both within and apart from God's creation (which includes relativity), one would assume that God is not subject to God's creation (which includes relativity.)
We live linearly -- that is, we perceive time as one event followed by another. If God is omniscient, then God already exists in our "future" in a non-linear way, and sees life as a painting, not as a piece of music.

 

[sojourner]

Well, it's very hard given how pithy an well thought out your position is. And you are grasping the concepts I present so well! I want to apologize for annoying you with my ignorance. One day, if I work very hard, I hope to be able to attain your wisdom.

Spout a snotty, self-serving idea of God and choice, and you'll get a snotty answer.

But God knew every action I would ever take before He created the universe, right?

I don't think we can make that assertion as an absolute.

For example, today, right now, God knows what I will eat for breakfast tomorrow. When tomorrow comes, no matter how much it may feel like I'm "choosing" my breakfast, there is only one thing that can happen and that is that I will do what God foreknew I would do. It is not a choice because there is zero possibility that I will do anything else.

Once again, we perceive it differently than God does. We do choose. Just because God knows the choice we will make does not mean that we make that choice based upon God's knowledge.

 

[sojourner]

@ Sojourner, did god always know, even before he created the earth, that he was going to drown the entire globe in a flood? Meaning, he knew and expected man to become drunk with wickedness. If he did, then why did he set them up for failure?

It's a story told for our understanding, not for God's definition. God knows what we will do, because God is more aware and has a greater perspective than we do. Just as a parent knows that the baby will fall down before the baby does, so God knows how we will fall down.

In fact, the story isn't about our failure. At all. It's about God's mercy in overcoming wickedness and saving a remnant out of that wickedness.

 

[PolyHedral]

But why did the wickedness exist in the first place if God knew full well that it would exist and need to be eliminated?

If God is omniscient, then God already exists in our "future" in a non-linear way, and sees life as a painting, not as a piece of music.

Would you mind avoiding metaphors when discussing this kind of thing? There is no equivalent to a "painting" that is comparable to the 4D (or more, under some theories) structure that the universe is generally modeled as. God should be able to see this entire structure at once, and be able to see all of the effects of his actions upon it "instantly." (as it makes no sense for anything internal to the universe to change this structure)

 

[sojourner]

But why did the wickedness exist in the first place if God knew full well that it would exist and need to be eliminated?

Because God gives us free will.

Would you mind avoiding metaphors when discussing this kind of thing? There is no equivalent to a "painting" that is comparable to the 4D (or more, under some theories) structure that the universe is generally modeled as. God should be able to see this entire structure at once, and be able to see all of the effects of his actions upon it "instantly." (as it makes no sense for anything internal to the universe to change this structure)

That's exactly my point. One can perceive the entire structure of the painting all at once. One must hear the music laid out in linear time in order to perceive the entire structure. The metaphor is apropos in that it shows this dynamic, not in that a painting is "like the universe."

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Because God gives us free will.

Have you ever tried to convince yourself free will doesn't exist? You speak of it so freely and as a matter of fact, I am just curious how much you have tried to understand the side that says there is no free will.

 

[Gauss]

Oh...

But your metaphor was offered as an explanation as to why God would create a world that he knew would turn bad and need to be flooded to kill all life except for Noah and the passengers on the ark. How does this cosmos-cycle stuff address that?

Maybe because God needed to perfect the cosmos he needed this cycle, we have had nine worlds it is said and man has three souls and seven spirits, hence at the tenth world maybe it will become perfect?.... In the future that cycle should be over with, I hope.

Try reading the book Zhuan Falun to understand better: http://www.falundafa.org/eng/books.html

 

[Beaudreaux]

Since God exists both within and apart from God's creation (which includes relativity), one would assume that God is not subject to God's creation (which includes relativity.)
We live linearly -- that is, we perceive time as one event followed by another. If God is omniscient, then God already exists in our "future" in a non-linear way, and sees life as a painting, not as a piece of music.

But the question of whether or not we can surprise God is really about the way WE experience time. Sure, God may not be limited by linear time, but WE ARE. That is why, if our future is known right now then it is impossible for us to do anything that vaires from it.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Maybe because God needed to perfect the cosmos he needed this cycle...

So, you must not believe God is all-powerful. Is that correct? I am not familiar with Falun Gong theology.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Spout a snotty, self-serving idea of God and choice, and you'll get a snotty answer.

How exactly is this argument (which I did not originiate) snotty and self-serving? Wow, someone gets upset when their ideas are challenged!

But God knew every action I would ever take before He created the universe, right?

I don't think we can make that assertion as an absolute.

Oh....I thought you claimed God was omniscient. Well, if God is limited in his knowledge and does know know the future, then His knowledge does not abrigate free will.

Once again, we perceive it differently than God does. We do choose. Just because God knows the choice we will make does not mean that we make that choice based upon God's knowledge.

I asked you to educate me about what a choice is a few posts back. I have offered a definition that states that choice is when a person selects from more thane one possible action. Do you have a better definition?

 

[Gauss]

So, you must not believe God is all-powerful. Is that correct? I am not familiar with Falun Gong theology.

God is all-powerful and each of us decides our own fate, either we follow the laws of the cosmos(generating virtue) or not(generating karma). The trouble is that the sentient beings in this cosmos have deviated over time becoming corrupt and selfish, making it necessary to explode the universe to destroy these beings and then create a new universe with new beings. This time obviously there is another plan to make the universe´s sentient beings "autoadjusting" as I have understood it. First of all some evil people must be weeded out, but not necessarily by an explosion. Read the prophecies and Master Li´s articles and you will know what I mean.

These questions about the future cosmos are absolutely beyond my scope and the above stated is just some guesses I made based on my studies.

In reference to Falun Gong, check this prophecy: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...orean-end-times-prophecy-pinpoints-falun.html