Challenge: I'm willing to convert if.......

[PearlSeeker]

This photo may appear ordinary, as it could be a low-probability coincidence for the rose to appear in the hand. However, the photo could also be framed in such a way that the rose appears exactly as it does in the hand. In your eyes, there may be no miracle in seeing this photo, considering the entire history surrounding this family, do you agree? But for others, this is considered a miracle.


That's how things happen.

A coincidence is not a miracle.

 

[IbnUmmah]

A coincidence is not a miracle.

Some have ventured that coincidences never occur, they are in fact all synchronicity...which by its etymological nature infers a divine writer of destiny; 'the happening of events at their prescribed moment in time'. From this perspective, every event within creation is a dependent miracle leading from the initial 'big bang' at hypothesised clash of dimensions leading to our dimensional birth as our perceivable, empirical 'universe'.

 

[McBell]

Some have ventured that coincidences never occur,

There has been all manner of ventures declared.
Most of which have been shown faulty.

they are in fact all synchronicity...which by its etymological nature infers a divine writer of destiny...

If there is a divine writer that dictates what will happen and when, then I agree.
Personally, I have not seen anything to support such a claim.

From this perspective, every event within creation is a dependent miracle ...

Nope.
If every thing is being played out exactly as the divine writer writes, then NOTHING can be a miracle.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Some have ventured that coincidences never occur, they are in fact all synchronicity...which by its etymological nature infers a divine writer of destiny; 'the happening of events at their prescribed moment in time'. From this perspective, every event within creation is a dependent miracle leading from the initial 'big bang' at hypothesised clash of dimensions leading to our dimensional birth as our perceivable, empirical 'universe'.

Synchronicity by itself doesn't involve any "divine writer".

Synchronicity can be considered synonymous with correlation, without any statement about the veracity of various causal inferences. (Wiki)

What you are referring to is agenticity.

In The Believing Brain (2011), Shermer wrote that humans have "the tendency to infuse patterns with meaning, intention, and agency", which he called agenticity. (Wiki)

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes those things are certainly good things but they aren’t miracles

Definition of a miracle - an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment (Merriam-Webster)

Transformation of one’s character from evil and corrupt to saintly through belief in God is I believe, most definitely an outstanding accomplishment which is described also as a miracle.

 

[McBell]

Definition of a miracle - an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment (Merriam-Webster)

Transformation of one’s character from evil and corrupt to saintly through belief in God is I believe, most definitely an outstanding accomplishment which is described also as a miracle.

How many theists have done that?
Isn't that number in the billions?
If the majority of those who are alive and have ever lived has done it, what part makes it a "miracle"?

 

[Madsaac]

Definition of a miracle - an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment (Merriam-Webster)

Transformation of one’s character from evil and corrupt to saintly through belief in God is I believe, most definitely an outstanding accomplishment which is described also as a miracle.

Thanks but you forgot to post the first part of the definition.

1 :an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
the healing miracles described in the Gospels

And, I disagree about changing one's character as a miracle. Yes, an outstanding accomplishment but no miracle.

 

[osgart]

Having faith in certain religions is the act of putting on the blinders to people that do not subscribe to those religions; Christianity and Islam in particular. It alienates and oppresses. Unintended cruelty is not a righteous path.

Best thing a person can do is independently investigate existence and its realities for themselves objectively. If one considers their minds able to comprehend the truth of existence this should be no problem. However if one sees the human mind as corrupt and/or unable to ascertain the realities of existence then one is often prone to the fallibility of various holy books.

Any way you slice it, it's better to not have faith before knowledge. How many so called believers have the freedom without consequences to question their own faith? Mad, mad world!

 

[IbnUmmah]

There has been all manner of ventures declared.
Most of which have been shown faulty.


If there is a divine writer that dictates what will happen and when, then I agree.
Personally, I have not seen anything to support such a claim.


Nope.
If every thing is being played out exactly as the divine writer writes, then NOTHING can be a miracle.

In answering a) i) Really? ii) How so? Furthermore how would you know?

b) ii) Such a writer would lie beyond the realms of the measurable then as you obviously will be waiting eternity and a day before a large 'Godlike' hand containing a pen dips into the Atlantic as ink commanding each atom instantaneously to begin their elusive dance.
thus i) Given ii) Evidently you don't; more a literary rhetorical device than statement pertaining to truth.

c) Well I maintain Yes, contrariwise EVERYTHING is a miracle; that you fail to see. That you may exist as my diametric, dialectical, and thus juxtaposition entered my mind. However I have momentarily suspended this view as I have only a few data to base that supposition. A couple more and I'll have the 0.2 I require to see if my hypothesis is found to be beyond SD. If you can just clear up your initial point, i.e. your initial almost omniscient 'poetic' device [a) i & ii] I'll be equipped for all future interactions or lack thereof.

Thanks.

 

[IbnUmmah]

Synchronicity by itself doesn't involve any "divine writer".

Synchronicity can be considered synonymous with correlation, without any statement about the veracity of various causal inferences. (Wiki)

What you are referring to is agenticity.

In The Believing Brain (2011), Shermer wrote that humans have "the tendency to infuse patterns with meaning, intention, and agency", which he called agenticity. (Wiki)

The very same was put to Dawkins in seminar in regard to his rejection of creationism. He added it (i.e patterns in creation) had at least non fallacious logic while remaining empirically unproveable and although therefore rational not a position he was likely to adhere to.

Richard Dawkins

 

[McBell]

In answering a) i) Really? ii) How so? Furthermore how would you know?

Your b and c below answer these questions.

b) ii) Such a writer would lie beyond the realms of the measurable then as you obviously will be waiting eternity and a day before a large 'Godlike' hand containing a pen dips into the Atlantic as ink commanding each atom instantaneously to begin their elusive dance.
thus i) Given ii) Evidently you don't; more a literary rhetorical device than statement pertaining to truth.

Yes.
As if said writer does not even exist.
which makes sense since said writer has already written the story.

c) Well I maintain Yes, contrariwise EVERYTHING is a miracle; that you fail to see.

Probably because I do not see everything is a miracle.

That you may exist as my diametric, dialectical, and thus juxtaposition entered my mind.

That was a whole lot of syllables to not say much.

However I have momentarily suspended this view as I have only a few data to base that supposition. A couple more and I'll have the 0.2 I require to see if my hypothesis is found to be beyond SD. If you can just clear up your initial point, i.e. your initial almost omniscient 'poetic' device [a) i & ii] I'll be equipped for all future interactions or lack thereof.

Thanks.

Perhaps if you stopped trying to show off your big word vocabulary and actually said what you mean at say, a college freshman level, I would be able to understand what it is you said.

Hopefully it is more than the first over syllabled sentence I pointed out...

 

[IbnUmmah]

Your b and c below answer these questions.

They can't. The questions were to you, as you ventured into a discussion with the OP; obviously one of the ventures of which we DO have proof. My 'answers'/subsequent statements can't answer my questions to you; nor your evasion and ad hominems. I now have far in excess of a 0.2, it only took five positives and you've supplied a plethora.

I'd suggest we avoid each other from now on, as I think I've discovered one almost as soon as I arrive! Green skin? (Rhetorical question, please; no answer required when it's obvious).

 

[IbnUmmah]

I'm obviously in a weird reality where I attempt to engage a well meaning member of the community on a topic of HIS choosing, QED, and end up in a conversation with Shrek. In these cases better in than out.

 

[Balthazzar]

Having faith in certain religions is the act of putting on the blinders to people that do not subscribe to those religions; Christianity and Islam in particular. It alienates and oppresses. Unintended cruelty is not a righteous path.

Best thing a person can do is independently investigate existence and its realities for themselves objectively. If one considers their minds able to comprehend the truth of existence this should be no problem. However if one sees the human mind as corrupt and/or unable to ascertain the realities of existence then one is often prone to the fallibility of various holy books.

Any way you slice it, it's better to not have faith before knowledge. How many so called believers have the freedom without consequences to question their own faith? Mad, mad world!

That's a great point. How many have the freedom to question religious thought without consequence. I think the precepts associated with religious thought were aimed to avoid a negative consequence. That's typically how it works anyway, religious or not. The laws (religious one's) were instituted based on the culture and era they were initiated and employed. I'm certain the reasons for them were warranted enough to observe and teach them to the kids, also. It's mostly cultural, so I don't mind questioning laws and precepts belonging to a culture not my own. I have reason for the "morals" and "values" I adhere to and I'm sure I'm not alone. They vary, I'm sure. By the way, the subjective is no less important than the objective. As an individual unique from others, I can assure you that my subjective truth matters no less than your own.

 

[PearlSeeker]

The very same was put to Dawkins in seminar in regard to his rejection of creationism. He added it (i.e patterns in creation) had at least non fallacious logic while remaining empirically unproveable and although therefore rational not a position he was likely to adhere to.

Richard Dawkins

The position of creationism (literal interpretation of the creation myth) is not the same as designed but self-evolving universe. Only the later is rational.

 

[Trailblazer]

Transformation of one’s character from evil and corrupt to saintly through belief in God is I believe, most definitely an outstanding accomplishment which is described also as a miracle.

It might be a miracle if that is what actually happens, since it would be unusual, but it does not happen that often.
Most people who came to believe in God were not evil, they were just ordinary people.
Most of those people were already good people since most people are good.

 

[IbnUmmah]

So why do I suggest virgin birth as the miracle? Well it stands as a miracle performed by God HIMSELF through his angels, as we are taught that God uses means. While he merely has to say 'Be' and it comes to pass, we (Muslims) are taught that He uses means to achieve the manifestation of HIS will and SOVEREIGNTY within creation, as he Himself is established over his throne of supreme sovereignty as the living, the self supporting, separate in person from his creation other than by his will and sovereignty; he is without partner, place, or dimension and infinite and absolute being of light, An Nur.

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. His light is like a niche in which there is a lamp, the lamp is in a crystal, the crystal is like a shining star, lit from a blessed olive tree, neither to the east nor the west, whose oil would almost glow, even without being touched by fire. Light upon light! Allah guides whoever He wills to His light. And Allah sets forth parables for humanity. For Allah has knowledge of all things. Through houses which Allah has ordered to be raised, and where His Name is mentioned. He is glorified there morning and evening

24:35-36

We are also instructed by Surah Ikhlas to cleanse ourselves of ALL concepts pertaining to His Lordship over creation and thus Mankind which limit Him, allowing our minds to stand in awe of his infinite and absolute majesty. To associate with God that which he neither attributes to Himself is considered the greatest sin in Islam named the greater shirk/association.

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.

112

Once false concepts have been purified as with the mundane ablutions prior to prayer (Wudu) then the same Surah (picture) states a belief in Taweed, deriving from the same root as the number one; wahid, thus his name Al-Wahid.

So why does this pertain to Jesus?

We are taught that Jesus did not bring the good news, he himself as the second Adam both a new Alpha, but also a conclusion to Adam, thus the Omega WAS and IS that Good NEWS; a living book, he himself the INJIL/Gospel, a word breathed into creation through Mary as a living book, and that as with the lineage stated in Matthew 1:1 the clay that was fashioned to contain this living word and spirit breathed from God was provided by Joseph the husband of Mary via the immaculate conception. As Jibril/Gabriel informs both Mary and Joseph, a detail they would have BOTH been more than aware, the messiah was to emerge into the dunya/material world WITHOUT a sexual act, a virgin birth.

Today the means of how such an act can be achieved by man himself comes to us in the C21st via the procedure of IVF, but at the time of the coming of the anointed of God, the second Adam, son of Adam, son of David, the whole phenomena was and thus is miraculous.

"Miracles do not occur in contradiction with nature, merely with that which we can recognise as nature"

Good News has come, and surely this man from Galilee will come again; Good News will follow.

 

[alf]

How can you believe this? Its just a leap of FAITH. Just something written in a book.

If you believe this, you believe in Hobbits to be real.

Did you read the text?

You ask two religions for a miracle, and if they give you a miracle you will gladly join their religion!
I posted quotes describing both religions as an abomination to god.

Are you looking eyes (miracle) from the blind?

Do you even know what you are writing?

 

[Madsaac]

Did you read the text?

You ask two religions for a miracle, and if they give you a miracle you will gladly join their religion!
I posted quotes describing both religions as an abomination to god.

Are you looking eyes (miracle) from the blind?

Do you even know what you are writing?

Of course I read it.

I read it because it's just a piece of writing, that is all. Nothing more or less. It's certainly not a miracle. Words on paper.

You said it yourself. It's symbolism

 

[alf]

Of course I read it.

I read it because it's just a piece of writing, that is all. Nothing more or less. It's certainly not a miracle. Words on paper.

You said it yourself. It's symbolism

How are you looking for a miracle, when words are the most imperfect tool for conveying what is not spoken?