Christian Magic?

[Perfect Circle]

I'm sorry to tell you but Baptism, prayer, and Eucharist are magic. Many people in this forum have already defined for you what magic is, but I'll give you the ancient Egyptian view on it. The Kemetic word for magic is heka. Heka means- to speak with authority. So yes, magic is in fact the way of the universe

Look... when we define something as anything at all, it becomes meaningless.

Also, the last part of your post doesn't follow at all...

The Egyptians said magic meant to speak with authority... so magic is the way of the universe??

 

[Perfect Circle]

The problem is people think words have no power, and they do. In the ancient Egyptian view words could be some of the most powerful magic of all.

Words have power in a certain sense.. yes. To motivate people to action, to get a dog to fetch a ball, to communicate.. But they do not have the power to conjure anything, cast a spell, or turn anyone into a newt.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Look... when we define something as anything at all, it becomes meaningless.

Also, the last part of your post doesn't follow at all...

The Egyptians said magic meant to speak with authority... so magic is the way of the universe??

Yes, because anything you speak has power to effect the world around you. Therefore, magic is the way of the universe.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

But they do not have the power to conjure anything, cast a spell, or turn anyone into a newt.

This part of your post shows you understand nothing about true magic at all. I'm going over your head

 

[LoTrobador]

I believe he is referring to the magic involved when a mortal priest uses a magical process and converts thin wafers into the body of Jesus and turns watered down wine into the blood of Jesus.

:yes: Just like magic. That's exactly what magic is, invoking a name/names of a divine being and doing something like that. Baptism is magic too, powerful magic at that. Christians don't realize how powerful some of their magic is

Sorry, asking for precision I wasn't precise myself. But maybe context first:

There are Christians, who believe that Magic is real, that certain practices do have real power to influence Reality, and that such practice isn't contrary to the Christian teachings; vide: Mediaeval Western Magic.

There are other Christians, who believe Magic isn't real and that practices such as casting spells, charms, evocations or divination do not have real power. Some might say that practicing Magic, as it's based on assumptions different than what Christianity teaches, might lead one astray, and as such a Christian should not practice Magic.

And there are other Christians, who believe Magic is real, and that practicing it is contrary to Christian teachings. Some might argue, that such practice is an attempt to harness forces of Nature that were not ment to be controlled by humans. Other might argue, that humans themselves do not have power to influence the Reality beyond the scope of natural, physical means, but that the Fallen Angels are able to influence the Reality to a certain degree, and that the apparent power of Magical practices is a deception to lead one astray.

I think Christian definition of Magic is generally in agreement with the definitions from cultural studies and anthropology. So what's hypocritical about rejecting Magic - believed to be certain practices either uneffective or spiritually dangerous, while believing a Christian can pray to Omnipotent God, asking Him to influence the Natural Reality (as Transsubstantiation isn't an act of priest, but of God)?

 

[Adramelek]

A Catholic mass is a white magical ceremony where one symbolically drinks the blood of christ and eats his flesh in order to re-purify themselves and commune with their god. It is also a form of symbolic cannibalism.

/Adramelek\

 

[blackout]

A Catholic mass is a white magical ceremony where one symbolically drinks the blood of christ and eats his flesh in order to re-purify themselves and commune with their god. It is also a form of symbolic cannibalism.

/Adramelek\

The Roman Catholic Church does not teach that the Transubstantiation is symbolic actually.
They teach that it (the eucharist) IS the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ.
Thus not canabalism (on a technicality?) because he (body blood soul and divinity) is not dead.

That's the official church teaching.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

I am by no means trying to argue with you UV.... but....

if you eat part of someone that's still alive... isn't that still cannibalism??

I didn't know that it was only cannibalism if the person was dead.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Can anyone see that Christianity invokes the power of God? Magick is not pulling rabbits out of hats, it is channeling energy.

The Bible does not say that magick is not real. The Bible also says to have no other God's before him.

If there where no such thing as magick or other God's, why the rules against them?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Wow, I have waited years to have this discussion. As a former ceremonial magickan who studied the kabbalah, (just like Alister Crowley) I can assure you that many magickans have found power from this ancient form of jewish mysticism.

I believe this mysticism was the one and the same knowledge that Jesus studied as a young man and these miracles where in fact magick by today's standards.

Jesus may well have been one of the greatest magickan of all time.

So the biggest question is, which came first and who stole what from whom?

Gotta tell you, a staff that turns into a serpent or parting the seas sounds interesting in the light of the conversation. Water into wine, the fish and the loaves.........

Many folks are missing the connection because believers of magick don't want any Jewish roots and Christians sure as hell don't like miracles compared to magick.

The comparisons are obvious if you have an open mind.

yet modern kabbalah didnt begin until the 12th century

oh well, your idea was nice...pity about the huge gaping holes in it

 

[Mr Cheese]

Can anyone see that Christianity invokes the power of God? Magick is not pulling rabbits out of hats, it is channeling energy.

The Bible does not say that magick is not real. The Bible also says to have no other God's before him.

If there where no such thing as magick or other God's, why the rules against them?

I guess no one actually knows the difference between magic and mysticism....

 

[blackout]

The Roman Catholic Church does not teach that the Transubstantiation is symbolic actually.
They teach that it (the eucharist) IS the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ.
Thus not canabalism (on a technicality?) because he (body blood soul and divinity) is not dead.

That's the official church teaching.

I am by no means trying to argue with you UV.... but....

if you eat part of someone that's still alive... isn't that still cannibalism??

I didn't know that it was only cannibalism if the person was dead.

Yes... but it doesn't "kill" him.
And... you don't eat "part" of him,
the idea is that you are consuming ALL of him.
Every partical every "part" of the host/eucharist/wafer
is said to be the ENTIRETY of the living jesus.
Like a physical invocation of sorts? But taken to the literal extreme.

and the fact that only the priests can turn the host into jesus
makes the masses (ie... the catholic lay people/catholics)
entirely dependent on the church
for their communion with god.

You see... ONLY the preists... can do the magic/k.


eh.
it really works too.
people won't leave
just because they can't get "the eucharist"
anywhere else.
And they "can't" "officiate" the transubstantiation themselves.
Women aren't even allowed to do the church magick AT ALL.
(as they are not allowed to become preists/preistesses)
Thus the women ALWAYS remain dependent on the men.

I don't know honey.
I'm just telling you the official church teaching.

 

[Mr Cheese]

somethign to consider....

what is the purpose of magic?

answer: to not have magic

 

[Reverend Rick]

I guess no one actually knows the difference between magic and mysticism....

I believe you underestimate our members greatly.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I believe you underestimate our members greatly.

really? I see no evidence...

so far we have established:

words are powerful
magic does not involve newts
thinking about sprite is a form of magic
poop can be used to signfy many things,
magic is the way of the universe meaning the universe is actually poop
christians are all performing magic due to the above
Jesus was a hermeticist

:sarcastic

 

[Azakel]

maybe only sprite can perform certain rites?

maybe neo-satanic wiccans who worship monkeys, should drink sprite and twinkies?

Is that all you can do is insult her? How childish.

 

[Azakel]

I believe you underestimate our members greatly.

And insult us. But that's not surprising.

 

[Erebus]

really? I see no evidence...

so far we have established:

words are powerful
magic does not involve newts
thinking about sprite is a form of magic
poop can be used to signfy many things,
magic is the way of the universe meaning the universe is actually poop
christians are all performing magic due to the above
Jesus was a hermeticist

:sarcastic

Perhaps it would be helpful to outline the basic differences between magic and mysticism. Currently your attitude is not helping you.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Perhaps it would be helpful to outline the basic differences between magic and mysticism. Currently your attitude is not helping you.

I already have....

well magick specifically is a form of manipulation....

this is how mysticisma nd magic differ...

magic is like a man with a UV torch that goes around ripening tomatoes before their time

mysticism is like a man who goes around waiting for the sun to ripen the tomatoes, hoping that by setting up certain conditions the tomatoes will ripen.

There is a subtle difference

But I understand the mystics in this forum dont really understand magic, and the magicians in this forum tend to see everythign as magic.... as a general rule

I am sorry for the childish posts, I shall remove them forthwith

.........

"Love is not a thing to understand.
Love is not a thing to feel.
Love is not a thing to give and receive.
Love is a thing only to become
And eternally be. "

- Sri Chinmoy
​

“The divine manifestation is governed by a certain rhythm, which is present even in the minutest atom. This state of being knows no antitheses, it casts no shadows, and always brings forth itself. Good is not set against evil, nor beauty against ugliness, nor love against hatred, nor reality against delusion. The Gnosis does not have love; it does not radiate love; it IS love.”

- Jan van Rijckenborgh

 

[Erebus]

I already have....



I am sorry for the childish posts, I shall remove them forthwith

Ahh, I must have skimmed over it, I should really learn to read threads in more detail
Don't worry too much about it, we all slip up occasionally, I just didn't want to see this debate turn into a mere argument, it's one of the more interesting threads IMO