Christians Only: The Book of Mormon

[Jane.Doe]

One of the things I love about my experience in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the way it’s so encouraged to ponder deeper about what and why you believe what you do. Aspects of this include:
- Putting God and prayerful study in the forefront
-Spending the time to study and develop epistemological methods.
- Understanding the development and history behinds texts. As well as the content therein obviously.
-A balance between personal and public revelation

 

[idea]

Are you not a Christian? If so, do you not know what it is to listen to the Spirit?

(That’s actually a very honest question, I don’t know you and haven’t been on this forum for years).

I'm not sure you understand what that feeling is either. I will invite you again to contemplate this video as well as the many different faith who act based on "elevation emotion". We are heard animals - like bees following a queen, or wolves following an alpha. Humans have heard instincts the bump into play. Those feelings are not from God, they do not reveal "truth", they are there to bond you to a group... many groups have the same thing.
- Elevation (emotion) - Wikipedia.

 

[Jane.Doe]

I'm not sure you understand what that feeling is either. I will invite you again to contemplate this video as well as the many different faith who act based on "elevation emotion". We are heard animals - like bees following a queen, or wolves following an alpha. Humans have heard instincts the bump into play. Those feelings are not from God, they do not reveal "truth", they are there to bond you to a group... many groups have the same thing.
- Elevation (emotion) - Wikipedia.

Hi Idea, I remember you from my previous stint of R.F. . This was a topic we just see different on.

 

[John1.12]

Testing is very good. I’d recommend it for everyone. That being said, I know folks whom have tested and reached different conclusions from each other, including myself. But still, listening to God and testing according to the Spirit is the#1 approach I would recommend.

The test is with Scripture . If Joseph Smith and his parents had done this we wouldn't have the false religion of Mormonism leading people away from Jesus.

 

[Jane.Doe]

The test is with Scripture . If Joseph Smith and his parents had done this we wouldn't have the false religion of Mormonism leading people away from Jesus.

I test first and foremost with GOD and asking Him. I follow Christ into and as part of the Church Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

I acknowledge that other folks have different views. If like to talk about any points, I’m happy to chat. But blind “you don’t follow Christ” isn’t a conversation.

 

[John1.12]

I test first and foremost with GOD and asking Him. I follow Christ into and as part of the Church Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

I acknowledge that other folks have different views. If like to talk about any points, I’m happy to chat. But blind “you don’t follow Christ” isn’t a conversation.

Ok ( and for the 5th time ) What is the Gospel today ? How is a person saved by Jesus?

 

[idea]

Hi Idea, I remember you from my previous stint of R.F. . This was a topic we just see different on.

As someone whose children were abused because "elevation emotion" testified to me that leaders were trustworthy, and calling came from "God", in an attempt to protect others from harm - everything from feeding $ to $100 billion+ company, to not taking authority for yourself as a female and allowing males to have dominion over you.... I was once where you are now... I wish I would have listened to others sooner, so that my children would not have been harmed.

 

[John1.12]

I test first and foremost with GOD and asking Him. I follow Christ into and as part of the Church Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

I acknowledge that other folks have different views. If like to talk about any points, I’m happy to chat. But blind “you don’t follow Christ” isn’t a conversation.

What your describing is subjective How do you know its God ? Warm and fuzziness? indigestion ? book falls off shelf? Message on a truck on the highway? Shapes in the clouds ? This idea is foolish and leads to spiritual abuse and manipulation with those who dictate over you .

 

[idea]

... If like to talk about any points,

2017 general conference talk, Holland - do you remember this story? a young man from Idaho serving a proselyting mission in California find estranged brother.... everyone loved it, and "felt the spirit".... only that feeling was a lie, the story was a lie.
Elder Holland withdraws Church News missionary story
Mormon Apostle Withdraws Embellished Story

↑ why would an apostle lie? how do you explain feeling the "spirit", then finding what you felt was a lie?

Here is another conference talk, another lie:
Safety for the Soul
↑ that book he is holding? not "the book".
lds mormon "apostle" jeffrey r holland lying at conference

here is another example, Holland claims "not one red cent"... another lie
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/57bkpu/jeffrey_r_holland_blatantly_lying_during_qa/
Mormons Tipped Scale in Ban on Gay Marriage (Published 2008)

When reality goes against those "feelings".... when you are sitting on the phone with a detective.... when you are IDing kids from church, pictures taken in church building....child after child after child... it is a mind trip for sure. People in church still believing it was not "real", going to court, yes - it was real - sentenced to life, plenty of evidence real.

Ash conformity experiment - groups can really alter your perception of reality.

The sooner you escape, the better, especially for women. Reality = women are providers, women are protectors NOT men. Look at single moms vs. single dads, look at # of women in jail vs. # of men in jail. Women need careers, they need to not only be self-reliant, but successful enough to provide and care for their kids ← this is reality. No one has "authority" over you. You have authority over yourself. You have to take care of yourself.

"Jane Doe" is the name cops use when talking about unidentified corpses.... I am not sure why you chose that name? I worry for you. I hope you are ok? I hope this forum will be good for you, will teach you what you need to know to survive in the real world. No borrowed light, we are all on our own two feet. best wishes to you....

for me, back to work

 

[Jane.Doe]

What your describing is subjective How do you know its God ? Warm and fuzziness? indigestion ? book falls off shelf? Message on a truck on the highway? Shapes in the clouds ? This idea is foolish and leads to spiritual abuse and manipulation with those who dictate over you .

I should not have to describe the witness of the Holy Spirit to another Christian. Such is the foundation of an Christian testimony, regardless of denomination. .

 

[Jane.Doe]

2017 general conference talk, Holland - do you remember this story? a young man from Idaho serving a proselyting mission in California find estranged brother.... everyone loved it, and "felt the spirit".... only that feeling was a lie, the story was a lie.
Elder Holland withdraws Church News missionary story
Mormon Apostle Withdraws Embellished Story

↑ why would an apostle lie? how do you explain feeling the "spirit", then finding what you felt was a lie?

Idea, you've and I have already had this conversation very thoroughly.

 

[Jane.Doe]

2017 general conference talk, Holland - do you remember this story? a young man from Idaho serving a proselyting mission in California find estranged brother.... everyone loved it, and "felt the spirit".... only that feeling was a lie, the story was a lie.
Elder Holland withdraws Church News missionary story
Mormon Apostle Withdraws Embellished Story

↑ why would an apostle lie? how do you explain feeling the "spirit", then finding what you felt was a lie?

Here is another conference talk, another lie:
Safety for the Soul
↑ that book he is holding? not "the book".
lds mormon "apostle" jeffrey r holland lying at conference

here is another example, Holland claims "not one red cent"... another lie
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/57bkpu/jeffrey_r_holland_blatantly_lying_during_qa/
Mormons Tipped Scale in Ban on Gay Marriage (Published 2008)

When reality goes against those "feelings".... when you are sitting on the phone with a detective.... when you are IDing kids from church, pictures taken in church building....child after child after child... it is a mind trip for sure. People in church still believing it was not "real", going to court, yes - it was real - sentenced to life, plenty of evidence real.

Ash conformity experiment - groups can really alter your perception of reality.

The sooner you escape, the better, especially for women. Reality = women are providers, women are protectors NOT men. Look at single moms vs. single dads, look at # of women in jail vs. # of men in jail. Women need careers, they need to not only be self-reliant, but successful enough to provide and care for their kids ← this is reality. No one has "authority" over you. You have authority over yourself. You have to take care of yourself.

"Jane Doe" is the name cops use when talking about unidentified corpses.... I am not sure why you chose that name? I worry for you. I hope you are ok? I hope this forum will be good for you, will teach you what you need to know to survive in the real world. No borrowed light, we are all on our own two feet. best wishes to you....

for me, back to work

Reponding again, as you added a bunch of stuff.

@idea , you and I chatted a bunch during my previous stint on RF. I remember you and your story, and my heat went/does go out to you and the hard times you've gone through. In the probable case you don't remember, I myself am a survivor of major childhood sexual abuse. I'm happy you've come to a better place (or at least hopefully are, as I am out-of-date).

But you and I are different people and have had different paths. I'm not going to disrespect you by pushing the things I have found to be true on to you when you've said "no thank you". I'm not going insult your intelligence, condense towards you, go "oh poor girl", or anything like that.

And I ask that you please show me that same level of respect.

 

[idea]

Reponding again, as you added a bunch of stuff.

@idea , you and I chatted a bunch during my previous stint on RF. I remember you and your story, and my heat went/does go out to you and the hard times you've gone through. In the probable case you don't remember, I myself am a survivor of major childhood sexual abuse. I'm happy you've come to a better place (or at least hopefully are, as I am out-of-date).

But you and I are different people and have had different paths. I'm not going to disrespect you by pushing the things I have found to be true on to you when you've said "no thank you". I'm not going insult your intelligence, condense towards you, go "oh poor girl", or anything like that.

And I ask that you please show me that same level of respect.

Abuse continues generation after generation after generation for people who are unwilling to change.
His mother was abused, so she ignored her son's problems. His wife was abused so she ignored her husband's problems. People either rationalize abuse, stay in it, consider themselves "strong in the faith" for not changing...

or

you break the cycle. you change.

this is not about you, or me, it is about escaping creepy unhealthy untrue belief systems that lead to abuse.

male hierarchies lead to abuse. in the Catholic church, in the JW church, and especially in the Mormon church.

You know what grooming is, what those loving smiles really are.... do you also know what dissociation is? when your mind blocks out those things you do not want to see? if you do not see it, if you refuse to deal with reality, it leads to cycles of abuse continuing and continuing and continuing.

Holland - there is a clear example of lies, of people feeling the "spirit" and that feeling NOT being about "truth" or reality.

If you ran across some kid in a polygamous cult, would you try to explain to them, try to get them out? ... Do you have friends outside of the church? Do you have a support system? Do you have a job, can you support yourself? I have seen many people trapped by circumstances... staying in a group is one thing. Trying to get others to join that group - to further rationalize why you have not left yourself, pulling others into that trap? into that ***? I will not stand by and watch you try to do this.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Abuse continues generation after generation after generation for people who are unwilling to change.
His mother was abused, so she ignored her son's problems. His wife was abused so she ignored her husband's problems. People either rationalize abuse, stay in it, consider themselves "strong in the faith" for not changing...

or

you break the cycle. you change.

this is not about you, or me, it is about escaping creepy unhealthy untrue belief systems that lead to abuse.

male hierarchies lead to abuse. in the Catholic church, in the JW church, and especially in the Mormon church.

You know what grooming is, what those loving smiles really are.... do you also know what dissociation is? when your mind blocks out those things you do not want to see? if you do not see it, if you refuse to deal with reality, it leads to cycles of abuse continuing and continuing and continuing.

Holland - there is a clear example of lies, of people feeling the "spirit" and that feeling NOT being about "truth" or reality.

If you ran across some kid in a polygamous cult, would you try to explain to them, try to get them out? ... Do you have friends outside of the church? Do you have a support system? Do you have a job, can you support yourself? I have seen many people trapped by circumstances... staying in a group is one thing. Trying to get others to join that group - to further rationalize why you have not left yourself, pulling others into that trap? into that ***? I will not stand by and watch you try to do this.

Again: Please you me the same respect I'm showing you rather than pushing/assuming/condensing/etc.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Ok ( and for the 5th time ) What is the Gospel today ? How is a person saved by Jesus?

The Gospel is the Good News: that Christ, the Son of God, was born & died for our sins, and through Him we can live again as He did/does. A person is saved through having faith in Him- that relationship of accepting Him as your Lord & Savior is everything.

An important note here: a person is saved by their relationship with Christ. No man’s talking/writings (including the Bible) are what save you. The Bible is a messenger to convey some of God’s words that a person could live & learn from, but a believer should indeed have a direct relationship with Christ Himself. Not text—the text is not the divine itself nor does it save.

For me: the ultimate test is asking God Himself about something. NOT a text-- the text is not my Lord & Savior. I believe the Bible because God told me to, and scripture is properly understood through His Spirit. . This is not a whimsical statement, but rather the product of decades of intense study and prayer. I don't believe the Bible because the Bible said to believe it-- the Quran also tells me to believe it.

 

[Jane.Doe]

@Barry Johnson , also yes, I am saved, even according to Protestant beliefs. If you want to examine me with non-prejudice eyes, you’re welcome too ask. Hitting the big points:

Yes:
- Yes, I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord & Savior. Jesus Christ whom is the only Begotten Son of God, the Prince of Peace, 100% whom lived a mortal life including suffering & dying for my sins.
- By myself I'm nothing other than a loathsome sinner. Christ is everything.

Difference:
-No, I'm not a Protestant. Particularly I reject "sola scriptura" because I don't find everlasting God's words/truths to be confined to just what's in the Bible. I also disagree with some Creedal points which I don't find supported in scripture nor validated through prayer.

 

[John1.12]

@Barry Johnson , also yes, I am saved, even according to Protestant beliefs. If you want to examine me with non-prejudice eyes, you’re welcome too ask. Hitting the big points:

Yes:
- Yes, I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord & Savior. Jesus Christ whom is the only Begotten Son of God, the Prince of Peace, 100% whom lived a mortal life including suffering & dying for my sins.
- By myself I'm nothing other than a loathsome sinner. Christ is everything.

Difference:
-No, I'm not a Protestant. Particularly I reject "sola scriptura" because I don't find everlasting God's words/truths to be confined to just what's in the Bible. I also disagree with some Creedal points which I don't find supported in scripture nor validated through prayer.

Why are you avoiding my questions though ? What is the Gospel today and how is a person saved ?

 

[Jane.Doe]

Why are you avoiding my questions though ? What is the Gospel today and how is a person saved ?

I have answered several times, including the below (originally #295)

The Gospel is the Good News: that Christ, the Son of God, was born & died for our sins, and through Him we can live again as He did/does. A person is saved through having faith in Him- that relationship of accepting Him as your Lord & Savior is everything.

An important note here: a person is saved by their relationship with Christ. No man’s talking/writings (including the Bible) are what save you. The Bible is a messenger to convey some of God’s words that a person could live & learn from, but a believer should indeed have a direct relationship with Christ Himself. Not text—the text is not the divine itself nor does it save.

For me: the ultimate test is asking God Himself about something. NOT a text-- the text is not my Lord & Savior. I believe the Bible because God told me to, and scripture is properly understood through His Spirit. . This is not a whimsical statement, but rather the product of decades of intense study and prayer. I don't believe the Bible because the Bible said to believe it-- the Quran also tells me to believe it.

 

[John1.12]

I have answered several times, including the below (originally #295)

So you mean That Jesus died for our sins was buried and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures ( 1cor 15.1-4 )
That believing this as Romans 10.9 says

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So no works , Just simply believing the Gospel is the prerequisite ( 1cor 1.21 ) the good news is that Jesus died for sins and we simply receive by Faith ,no being saved AFTER all we can do ,nonsense, correct?
You would not add " We are saved after all we can do " would you ? because that is not the gosepl right?

 

[Jane.Doe]

So you mean That Jesus died for our sins was buried and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures ( 1cor 15.1-4 )
That believing this as Romans 10.9 says

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So no works , Just simply believing the Gospel is the prerequisite ( 1cor 1.21 ) the good news is that Jesus died for sins and we simply receive by Faith ,no being saved AFTER all we can do ,nonsense, correct?
You would not add " We are saved after all we can do " would you ? because that is not the gosepl right?

Did I say anything about works saving anyone? Nope. I repeatedly said: faith.

I also do NOT believe in cheap grace: that a saved person says "yeah I believe" with their mouth, and then continue about their exact same-old-same-old-sinful ways. Rather, a disciple of Christ gives their entire heart, might, mind, and soul to Him. That's real faith and rebirth.

Do you believe in cheap grace, Barry?