Circumcision should be banned

[Primordial Annihilator]

Yep, it took the Israelis less time then it took the Americans. They were very effective

Every dog has its day

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

On my former visit to London, I was amazed of the wealth of literature written by British historians of the efficient Jewish resistance in Palestine, they have called it, 'the most efficient resistance which has driven out the British from a region'. I had no idea so many books were written about it in Britain. I could have summarized it to them in a few very practical sentences.

Well as long as we learnt from the experience all is well

 

[Caladan]

rakhel, the gimp is all yours.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

rakhel, the gimp is all yours.

Oh stop being so melodramatic...

Good night you insulting little twerp.

 

[Rakhel]

rakhel, the gimp is all yours.

You mean, mean, man!!! You don't love me anymore!! Her lack of knowledge and understanding world history and culture is insulting enough without having to 2nd grade the information.

 

[David M]

You are so cute, I could pinch you.

Or you could do your job and remind people that personal attacks are not allowed, especially as you have had the attack pointed out to you.

Edit - But no, you decided you would make a personal attack.

 

[Levite]

How can you make a choice to reject a culture if it stares you in the face every morning?

Unfortunately, I have run into far too many irresponsible and ignorant Jews who have done just that, and done it with apparent ease.

It is the responsibility of the state to ensure that religion is not allowed to give people extraordinary powers over others..including children...it is the responsibility of the state to ensure that the rights of all citizens of whatever age are supported including the right to choose to have surgery on ones penis or not.
Jewish culture is a sub culture of the national culture (unless it is Israeli) therefore that culture is the primary identity of that citizen whatever his parents' sub culture is.

Part of the problem with this notion is that while you are vociferously claiming that it is a violation of human rights to circumcise, there simply are no great number of Jewish or Muslim men who are objecting to having been circumcised, and there are a great number who are saying that it is an important part of their culture and religious practice. Jews have been circumcising for thousands of years, and the last time any particular number of them had a problem with circumcision was during the Hellenic period, two thousand years ago. Since then, there have been no notable movements against circumcision, and in fact, notable efforts to preserve the practice when non-Jews attempted to force us to stop. I presume that there is a similar lack of contrarian movements in Islam, also, since I have never encountered such a thing in my readings of the history of Islam. There has been plenty of time for rejectionism. There has been none to speak of. There is none to speak of now.

So your argument essentially boils down to an assertion that our Jewish and Muslim cultures don't know what is right-- only you know what is right, and if we don't accept that, it must be forced upon us against our will.

Freedom of religion means just that: freedom to practice one's religon, without the interference of government or other authorities, unless life or safety is threatened.

Also, Judaism is not a subculture. It is a primary culture. I am not an American who happens to be a Jew. I am a Jew who happens to be an American. I am an American because America has been welcoming to my people, and is relatively fair and democratic. If that were to change, I would have very little problem picking up and going elsewhere. I love American ideals, the founding principles of this country. But if the country betrays those ideals and principles by taking away my freedom, then it's no choice. In that case, I am a Jew who will live elsewhere.

I fully believe in a one world order resulting in the eventual complete assimilation of all cultures into a composite global one and I support the notion entirely...not however a one world order run by bankers and arms dealers. I dream to be a part of a greater culture undivided and universal. May all the cultures pool together like mercury into something new and something better.

First of all, that sounds like authoritarian fascism, to me. It's right out 1984, Brave New World, Metropolis, Fahrenheit 451, or Triumph of the Will. And second of all, it sounds arrogant, high-handed, and magnificently blind to both the past and to the needs of mutual tolerance. A surefire way to kill off diversity, tradition, individuality of cultures, and to build intolerance, repression, and imposed unformity. That kind of oppression sounds like a nightmare to me, nothing to do with rights or freedoms.

Didnt fail the United States the United Kingdom or the EU to name but a few...yet.

Are you kidding me? You think that a bunch of the social problems in the US don't stem in part from the various attempts of the US Government over time to not honor this culture's rights, or that culture's rights? This country was built on killing Native Americans and working African slaves, remember?

Or if that slips your mind, try to recall British colonialism? How many cultures did you guys stamp out in the name of "civilization?" Different folks all over half the world, anybody?

"Idealistic" visions of a world where everybody surrenders their traditional cultural inheritance, and conforms their identity to some sort of "new, better" uberculture is just code-words for authoritarian tyranny. Not to know that is, I am sorry, naive.

 

[Father Heathen]

This thread is wacky. My penis and I are fine. Thank you for your concern.

 

[J2hapydna]

It is hard to comprehend anyone getting worked up about the "issue".

You look pretty happy in your avatar. Or is that your tail?

 

[J2hapydna]

The future is chinese?

We will all be speaking chinese soon?

How did you work that out?

They planning something big?

Big or small, why should you decide which langauge they speak? It should be the children, if you think parents cannot decide on circumcising them.

 

[J2hapydna]

The future is chinese?

We will all be speaking chinese soon?

How did you work that out?

They planning something big?

We will not, but our children will, if they dont want to be working as dustbin men. I think Hu is buying America from Obama as we speak. Or were you thinking one world order and everyone spekaing english?

 

[Breathe]

Levite, may I ask you a question, out of curiosity?

I've heard that a growing number of religious (but liberally-minded) Jewish people are replacing Brit Milah with a Brit Shalom (or something), a naming ceremony as opposed to a circumcision ceremony. Could you verify if this is true or if this is one of those claims that are running around, or if it's just a couple of people here and there?

If it is something that is (even occasionally) done, then what is your opinion on it?

Additionally, what are your thoughts on non-circumcised Jewish people? For example, someone whom I know who lives in Israel was not circumcised for some reason, but his family are both Jewish. Do you think that in order to truly be Jewish he should be circumcised, or can one fully participate in Jewish religious and social life and be uncut (I pretty certain that it would be possible to be fully in Jewish life if there was a medical reason for no circumcision, but I'm curious about those "uncut, but religious Jews")?

 

[Levite]

Levite, may I ask you a question, out of curiosity?

I've heard that a growing number of religious (but liberally-minded) Jewish people are replacing Brit Milah with a Brit Shalom (or something), a naming ceremony as opposed to a circumcision ceremony. Could you verify if this is true or if this is one of those claims that are running around, or if it's just a couple of people here and there?

If it is something that is (even occasionally) done, then what is your opinion on it?

Additionally, what are your thoughts on non-circumcised Jewish people? For example, someone whom I know who lives in Israel was not circumcised for some reason, but his family are both Jewish. Do you think that in order to truly be Jewish he should be circumcised, or can one fully participate in Jewish religious and social life and be uncut (I pretty certain that it would be possible to be fully in Jewish life if there was a medical reason for no circumcision, but I'm curious about those "uncut, but religious Jews")?

I have to be honest, I have never heard of religious, practicing/observant Jews who are not circumcised for any reasons other than medical. Secular Jews, who are completely uneducated, unaffiliated, non-practicing, and sometimes apostates...yes, that I have heard of. But not religious, practicing Jews.

There are some small number of people in the Reform movement who are claiming to be troubled with circumcision now, but the majority of them are intermarried couples, whose children aren't halakhically Jewish anyhow, and they do not appear to be particularly observant or Jewishly active people-- certainly not at all Jewishly educated. I don't know of anyone in the Conservative or Orthodox movements who has any problems with circumcision, and certainly the right wing of the Reform movement, including their leadership, are deeply committed to circumcision. Even Reconstructionists are, for the greatest part, pretty committed to circumcision.

I heard of a group that calls itself Humanistic Jews, who seem to not circumcise, but since they seem to pride themselves on neither believing in God or following the commandments-- and on intermarrying-- I am at a loss to quite understand what sort of Jewish identity they think that they have. It is from one of these "cultural secular" Jews that I heard of a naming ceremony for an uncircumcised boy. Unfortunately, there just is no such thing. It's a fiction. Certainly people have been innovating naming ceremonies for girls, often called things like Brit Bat (covenant for the girl-child) or Brit Shalom, or Brit Kodesh (holy covenant), or suchlike, and those are fine, they're perfectly acceptable, since they fill a void in which the tradition was lacking a suitable ritual. But we have a brit ceremony for boys: brit milah (circumcision). There is no substitution.

Judaism is not a religion that seeks to enforce itself on its members: in other words, if you do not get circumcised, it's not like the penis police will knock on your door in the night and make you get cut. But just because there is no enforcement mechanism does not make such behavior acceptable.The only reason that a Jewish boy cannot be circumcised, and yet still be fully a part of his Jewish culture, is because of medical circumstances. Granted, we don't check much, so it is certainly possible that a Jewish man could be uncircumcised for no acceptable reason, and hide the fact, and not be shut out of ritual duties he rightfully ought not to be doing. But that action would be deceitful, and I don't know why a Jewish man who cared about Judaism enough to educate himself and observe the other commandments, and fulfill those ritual duties that a non-circumcised man should not do, would not simply do the right thing and be circumcised.

Circumcision has always been the first and foremost identity mark of a Jewish man. It is arguably our oldest ritual, and there are few, if any, ritual duties in Judaism more important. One cannot be observant and uncircumcised, unless one's health prevents one from being safely circumcised. That simple, I'm afraid.

 

[Breathe]

I've bumped into a couple of non-circumcised religious Jews. I'll have to take their word for it though.

Out of curiosity, if a gentile were to wish to join Judaism, do they have to get circumcised in a particular way (like, a ritual to do so), or does the foreskin just need to be gone?

This sounds even weirder. I laughed when writing this because it's stupid, but I had to: what if (somehow) there was someone who was religiously Jewish, but somehow their foreskin grew back? I bumped into someone who claimed he was circumcised, but he didn't like it, so he did "foreskin restoration exercises". (We got on this subject in the hospital, I was in to ask why excess-underskin of my tongue had grown back despite having it cut 2 months earlier. It's still there now. It needs to go but my local hospital is filthy. My grandmother recently died of swine flu she'd caught there from going in with pneumonia, so I can wait). He may have been lying, but I had no intention of checking. Would that have to be removed again?

 

[Harmonious]

I've bumped into a couple of non-circumcised religious Jews. I'll have to take their word for it though.

Out of curiosity, if a gentile were to wish to join Judaism, do they have to get circumcised in a particular way (like, a ritual to do so), or does the foreskin just need to be gone?

It depends if the conversion candidate in question was circumcised as a child.

If he was, then the Mohel would let some blood. If he wasn't, the conversion candidate would have a circumcision in much the same way that a baby boy of eight days old would.

However, never having attended an adult's circumcision, I wouldn't know the customs that go along with it.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

We will not, but our children will, if they dont want to be working as dustbin men. I think Hu is buying America from Obama as we speak. Or were you thinking one world order and everyone spekaing english?

Lol what an imagination you have.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

"Idealistic" visions of a world where everybody surrenders their traditional cultural inheritance, and conforms their identity to some sort of "new, better" uberculture is just code-words for authoritarian tyranny. Not to know that is, I am sorry, naive.

Even though we completely disagree I appreciate the mature candor in your responses...you are a credit to this forum, it is a shame others cannot follow your example.
It is people like you that allow for reconciliation between otherwise disparate viewpoints and of course the groups that hold them.
Levite you have my respect and my very best wishes for the future whatever it brings.
It has been a pleasure debating with you...and if by some bizarre mysterious twist of fate I ever got some measure of control of my one world order and I needed to speak to a representative of the jewish people I would ask for Levite

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Big or small, why should you decide which langauge they speak? It should be the children, if you think parents cannot decide on circumcising them.

Because the two subjects are quite different and not analogous.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Or you could do your job and remind people that personal attacks are not allowed, especially as you have had the attack pointed out to you.

Edit - But no, you decided you would make a personal attack.

Quite..

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

You mean, mean, man!!! You don't love me anymore!! Her lack of knowledge and understanding world history and culture is insulting enough without having to 2nd grade the information.

You really shouldn't write cheques (checks) with your mouth that your mind cannot cash....darling.

:angel2: