College Orders Student to Alter Religious Views on Homosexuality, Or Be Dismissed

[Magic Man]

Bottom line, brbubba: She didn't meet the criteria set for graduating from her program, so they're trying to help her graduate.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Like I said before though, market forces, aka, her employer, would likely curb any negligence.

Ha! If that were true, then no professional licensing body would ever have to worry about discipline.

While we are at it how about all universities give ethics tests to students and if they fail they are denied a degree unless they go to remediation. Ethics is not something exclusive to counseling and breaches can occur in any field.

Indeed. It's not like ethics are a requirement only of counselors. My profession has a strong emphasis on ethical requirements as well.

In fact, think of any field of study in a university and consider this: say a student submits a plagiarized assignment. When found out, the student submits a replacement assignment that's all original work. Disciplinarily speaking, what would happen to the student?

Hopefully you would agree it wouldn't be nothing... even though at that point, the student would have submitted every assignment and written every exam that their program required.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

*looks up from painting fingernails*

Oh, is br STILL arguing about how a university should graduate someone unqualified?

Okay. *goes back to painting fingernails*

 

[brbubba]

Bottom line, brbubba: She didn't meet the criteria set for graduating from her program, so they're trying to help her graduate.

Yes, but I take issue when those criteria aren't predetermined. If a student came into the program reading the handbook would they have any indication that a personal belief would have an affect on their ability to matriculate? I would say that they would have no reason for cause or alarm based upon that statement I cited from the handbook.

If the university made her sign a statement saying I will treat patients to the best of my ability as outlined by the ACA guidelines and not let my personal judgements or feelings interfere with patient counseling, then I would be ok with that. However, trying to change her personal beliefs through remediation is discriminatory in my opinion. You're convicting someone of misconduct before they've even done the misconduct. Furthermore there doesn't seem to be evidence, aside from personal opinion, that misconduct would ever take place.

 

[Storm]

brbubba, it was a serious question, and I'd appreciate an answer: should universities graduate medical students who believe disease is caused by demons?

 

[brbubba]

brbubba, it was a serious question, and I'd appreciate an answer: should universities graduate medical students who believe disease is caused by demons?

As long as they don't treat their patients with exorcisms that's fine. If you believe something personally but can demonstrate an ability to follow proper medical guidelines then that's ok.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

As long as they don't treat their patients with exorcisms that's fine. If you believe something personally but can demonstrate an ability to follow proper medical guidelines then that's ok.

Ah, so as long as they don't really believe it.

 

[Storm]

As long as they don't treat their patients with exorcisms that's fine.

And why wouldn't they do exactly that?

If you believe something personally but can demonstrate an ability to follow proper medical guidelines then that's ok.

If your beliefs contradict proper medical guidelines, you have no business graduating.

Also, when has the student in question demonstrated any such thing?

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, but I take issue when those criteria aren't predetermined. If a student came into the program reading the handbook would they have any indication that a personal belief would have an affect on their ability to matriculate?

I would hope anyone going into this program would know that certain beliefs could hinder their ability to graduate. I would expect anyone potential graduate would know that you can't espouse ideas that are contrary to the profession you're working towards and expect to get a degree.

 

[Autodidact]

As long as they don't treat their patients with exorcisms that's fine. If you believe something personally but can demonstrate an ability to follow proper medical guidelines then that's ok.

If you honestly believe that disease is caused by demons, why would you not prescribe exorcism as a cure?

 

[brbubba]

If you honestly believe that disease is caused by demons, why would you not prescribe exorcism as a cure?

Maybe medication makes the demons go away. Exorcism isn't a necessary course to demon possession. People have all sorts of weird beliefs and mental health issues, but that doesn't prevent them from doing their job effectively.

If this were a situation where the university were licensing her I would be in full support of it. However, from my understanding, this is simply a conferring of a degree which indicates that she has satisfied an understanding of the curriculum.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

She's demonstrated her ability to comprehend the material, obviously she was in good academic standing at the time.

Actually if you read the brief again you'll find that there were problems with her academics

Dr.Anderson-Wiley first stated that the faculty would like to see Miss Keeton’s writing skills improve and that she would need to take an English Composition class.

On a personal level she has demonstrated an ability to not believe the material. Does that mean that she will practice what she preaches though? And does the school have the right to make that determination?

In the brief:

20. The Counselor Education Program Student Handbook sets forth the authority that the University’s governing officials have vested in the Counselor Education faculty to evaluate students on interpersonal or professional criteria unrelated to academic performance; to place students receiving unsatisfactory assessments on such considerations on remediation status; to impose conditions on students during their remediation status; and to reinstate or terminate students from the program based on compliance with the remediation plan imposed by the faculty.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

This girl is not being persecuted for her christian beliefs.

She is being persecuted for her REPEATED and unwavering vocalisation of her erroneous beliefs on homosexuality and reparative therapy.

Do you want me to link the post where i quote the APAs regulations on heterosexualist behaviours and there recommendations for treatment of said bigotry?

-Q

 

[Armymike6174]

A persons religious rights are fine and dandy, but not when they impede on another's rights. Its just like I have every right to swing my arm in any direction I want, but that right STOPS as soon as someone else's face starts! Its as simple as that.
She can believe what she wants to... but if it impedes her future line of work at all, it should no longer be considered her "right"... homosexuals have rights too... the right not to be discriminated against close-minded fundamentalist christians.
Oh and by the way; You CANNOT express your personal religious views however you wish within a school environment. If that were so, I could wear a shirt that says "Jesus freaks are the true homos" while I shout out that God is an egotistical, malevolent baby killer! at the top of my lungs whenever I feel like it... (not necessarily my personal views, I'm just using it for an example) and the school wouldn't be able to do a darn thing about it. But guess what? they can't because it violates others' freedom to attend a safe and non-discriminatory educational environment.
That being said, if this girl can't create this safe environment for her clients because of her personal views, then she obviously needs to find a new line of work... She should've seen this coming before she decided to major in something that would expose her to these kinds of situations... so yes, she should be dropped from the program. Not necessarily the university itself, as she also has the right to a non-discriminating education... but she DOES need to find a new field of study to work towards a different degree with.
Also, there should be no stipulation as participating in some lousy program... its NOT going to change her religious views over the course of a single paper and and a short "re-adjustment" class... She needs to cease the B.S. and cut her losses... now just find something else that she's interested in... that WON'T endanger her personal beliefs.

 

[brbubba]

Also, there should be no stipulation as participating in some lousy program... its NOT going to change her religious views over the course of a single paper and and a short "re-adjustment" class... She needs to cease the B.S. and cut her losses... now just find something else that she's interested in... that WON'T endanger her personal beliefs.

According to the brief it's required that she change her views regarding homosexuality which will be assessed by the faculty.

This girl is not being persecuted for her christian beliefs.

She is being persecuted for her REPEATED and unwavering vocalisation of her erroneous beliefs on homosexuality and reparative therapy.

Do you want me to link the post where i quote the APAs regulations on heterosexualist behaviours and there recommendations for treatment of said bigotry?

-Q

She hasn't expressed beliefs, according to the brief, in reparative therapy. You're missing the point, it's not about the APA's regulations, it's about the institution extrapolating personal viewpoints into an assumed behavior.

 

[McBell]

According to the brief it's required that she change her views regarding homosexuality which will be assessed by the faculty.




She hasn't expressed beliefs, according to the brief, in reparative therapy. You're missing the point, it's not about the APA's regulations, it's about the institution extrapolating personal viewpoints into an assumed behavior.

Are you even reading the same brief as everyone else?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

If your beliefs contradict proper medical guidelines, you have no business graduating.

Just a sidelight... when I was in religious college the biology department forcefully taught creation - a literal seven days - but that was that. Everything else was just like the biology courses I had in a state university, because the religious biology folks did not agrue against evolution or even against carbon dating, etc.

The head of the department was a distinguished member of the profession, and his speciality was epidemics / pandemics. He discovered cures and vaccines for many diseases in Texas and Africa.

 

[brbubba]

Are you even reading the same brief as everyone else?

Yes, if you have something to add feel free to cite it. She very specifically denies any allegations of conversion therapy.

 

[Autodidact]

Maybe medication makes the demons go away. Exorcism isn't a necessary course to demon possession. People have all sorts of weird beliefs and mental health issues, but that doesn't prevent them from doing their job effectively.

If this were a situation where the university were licensing her I would be in full support of it. However, from my understanding, this is simply a conferring of a degree which indicates that she has satisfied an understanding of the curriculum.

Actually, a degree means more than that.

 

[brbubba]

Actually, a degree means more than that.

Already covered this. A degree does not indicate any kind of open endorsement because it would subject the university to liability.

Some quotes from the brief:

18. Miss Keeton has never stated in class, or to fellow students outside of class, that
her Christian ethical views entail that she does not affirm the inherent dignity of or care for other
persons because of their views or behavior related to gender or sexual conduct.

25. Dr. Anderson-Wiley then reported to Miss Keeton that the faculty is concerned with certain of Miss Keeton’s beliefs and views that she has shared in class and with other students pertaining to GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender) issues. The faculty identifies Miss Keeton’s views as indicative of her improper professional disposition to persons of such populations.

40. Miss Keeton stated to the faculty members at the meeting that she never has communicated anything about “conversion therapy” as such, though she has spoken with other students about her religious beliefs on GLBT issues.

41. Miss Keeton stated that she did not understand why the faculty thought it a problem that she shared her religious beliefs with other students. Dr. Schenck responded that there are limits on what views Miss Keeton may express even outside the classroom or the counseling room.

42. Miss Keeton further stated to the faculty members that she does not see why her biblical ethical views would disqualify her competence as a counselor or should affect her stand- ing in the counseling program. She noted that the faculty had no basis for assuming her clinical performance as a counselor would be in any way inappropriate.

44. Miss Keeton asked Dr. Anderson-Wiley how her Christian convictions are any less acceptable than those a Buddhist or Muslim student may possess. Dr. Anderson-Wiley stated, “Christians see this population as sinners.”

51. Dr. Anderson-Wiley explained to Miss Keeton that the faculty members were asking her to alter some of her beliefs.

57. Miss Keeton gave consideration to her options in the days following the May 27, 2010 meeting. She did not want to be subject to the terms of the second portion of the remedia- tion plan, which required her to be subject to a sustained program of proselytizing that was overtly hostile to her Christian convictions, which no other student was required to endure in or- der to remain in good standing in the program.

67. Miss Keeton explained that while she was willing to learn and expand her aware- ness of relevant professional considerations, she had entered the program with the understanding that she would be able to maintain her beliefs. Dr. Anderson-Wiley wondered where she would have gotten that idea.

71. Dr. Schenck explained that the alteration of beliefs that they were looking for is that Miss Keeton would no longer believe that her views should be shared by other people, and that she would come to believe that persons of homosexual orientation need not change and are fine just as they are.

73. Miss Keeton stated that she is still in the learning process, but at this point does not see her role as counselor as requiring her to reorder the lives of her clients, which her professors seemed to conclude was her position.

93. Miss Keeton further doubted the fairness of being charged with counseling incapacity because of her views when she had attained an A in the class specifically directed to the issue under discussion. That grade attainment, she stated, demonstrates her understanding of
expected standards of interacting with diverse populations.

113. The opening phrase of the ASU Student Handbook recites: “The student has a right to take reasoned exception to data and views offered in the classroom and to reserve judg- ment about matters of opinion without fear of penalty.” (This handbook is attached hereto as Exhibit E, and its content incorporated herein by this reference.)