Commandments by Christ.

[Jainarayan]

Jesus teaching is all about love God and love one another.

Military is not of Jesus.

But he lost his temper @ the temple, right? Was that peaceful?

 

[Meshak]

Let me repeat, Jesus commands us to listen to the Pharisees.

reference?

 

[Shermana]

From the post:

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5“Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteriesa wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’
8“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.b 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.





We are apparently supposed to listen to the Pharisees and obey what they tell us, without imitating their hypocrisy, insincerity, and lack of following the Law in key places. Not doing what they do doesn't mean don't obey the Law, it means don't imitate the way they fail at it.

As you can see, Jesus most clearly, undeniably tells us to obey what the Pharisees say because they "sit in the seat of Moses'. What he tells us to NOT emulate is their hypocritical ways and their disobedience to the very words they teach.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Sooo...
What are we as Christians in America supposed to do, then? If, as you have said, this is the most Christian nation on earth (which I doubt), we cannot escape militarism. The armed forces are a branch of government. Government is of the people. Therefore, whether we're "in the army" or not, we're still complicit in the acts of the military. At least from your legalistic POV.

Congratulations. You've succeeded in entrapping every Christian American in a position of "not following Jesus," no matter what we do. Somehow, I don't think that's what Jesus had in mind when he is quoted as saying, "love your enemies."

Hey woah wait, Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in military service and they consider themselves christian.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Sooo...
What are we as Christians in America supposed to do, then? If, as you have said, this is the most Christian nation on earth (which I doubt), we cannot escape militarism. The armed forces are a branch of government. Government is of the people. Therefore, whether we're "in the army" or not, we're still complicit in the acts of the military. At least from your legalistic POV.

Congratulations. You've succeeded in entrapping every Christian American in a position of "not following Jesus," no matter what we do. Somehow, I don't think that's what Jesus had in mind when he is quoted as saying, "love your enemies."

Latter-Day-Saints believe that a person is justified in self-defense, but if they choose to do so they are denying greater blessings from our Father in Heaven that he would of given us if we had chosen not to fight fight back violently. That is unless God specifically commands you to fight back using violent means.

 

[Meshak]

But he lost his temper @ the temple, right? Was that peaceful?

good grief, you think getting angry and killing people are the same thing?

 

[Meshak]

Latter-Day-Saints believe that a person is justified in self-defense, but if they choose to do so they are denying greater blessings from our Father in Heaven that he would of given us if we had chosen not to fight fight back violently. That is unless God specifically commands you to fight back using violent means.

where did Jesus say it is ok to kill for self-defense?

 

[Meshak]

From the post:
As you can see, Jesus most clearly, undeniably tells us to obey what the Pharisees say because they "sit in the seat of Moses'. What he tells us to NOT emulate is their hypocritical ways and their disobedience to the very words they teach.

Your interpretation is out of context because they did not obey Jesus. Jesus commands His followers to be obedient to Him over and over.

Why do you disregard other verses and believe one verse out of context? Isn't that a bit convenient?

 

[Shermana]

Your interpretation is out of context because they did not obey Jesus. Jesus commands His followers to be obedient to Him over and over.

Why do you disregard other verses and believe one verse out of context? Isn't that a bit convenient?

By all means explain what the correct context is of "listen to them and do everything they tell you".

Usually when I tell people they have the wrong context, I try to explain why.

If your argument is that Jesus can't be telling them to "listen to them and do everything they tell you" because he says to obedient to him instead, your only recourse is to say Jesus lied and didn't really mean "Listen to them and do everything they say". Otherwise, kindly provide your interpretation of what that means. It's not like you can't reconcile them, since Jesus was basically teaching against their hypocrisy.

 

[Shermana]

good grief, you think getting angry and killing people are the same thing?

What was the purpose of making a whip of cords? Just to scare them? So it's okay to scare people with a whip of cords?

 

[Meshak]

By all means explain what the correct context is of "listen to them and do everything they tell you".

Usually when I tell people they have the wrong context, I try to explain why.

It seems to be something is wrong with that text. I dont know why. this is my reading Bible skill that I dont try to reason with those kind of text. I am not Bible scholar.

I read the Bible contextually, you are taking it out of context with Jesus' whole message. Jesus' hates hypocrisy and Jesus condemned pharisee as such.

 

[Meshak]

And I would like to add that what Jesus meant was if they say something right, do it, even they dont do it themselves.

 

[Shermana]

It seems to be something is wrong with that text. I dont know why. this is my reading Bible skill that I dont try to reason with those kind of text. I am not Bible scholar.

I read the Bible contextually, you are taking it out of context with Jesus' whole message. Jesus' hates hypocrisy and Jesus condemned pharisee as such.

Okay, I appreciate you repeating your claim that I'm taking it out of context, but it seems you want to say that I'm taking it out of context while also saying there's something wrong with the text. Which one is it? Is the text wrong or am I reading it wrong? If I'm reading it wrong, please, for the second time asking, explain what it should say and what it should mean.

"I don't try to reason with those kind of text" - So are you saying that if a text disagrees with your view, you don't bother with it? Do you believe it was interpolated with or without scholarly or manuscript basis?

You don't have to be a Bible scholar, if you have a good reason for saying there's something wrong with the text, you should have no problem explaining whether its a manuscript, grammatical, or interpretive issue. If it's an interpretive issue, you should feel obligated to explain why you think my interpretation is wrong other than the fact that it clashes with your views. If you feel it's a manuscript related issue, you should be prepared to explain why you think that the text is wrong.

Now if you didn't notice, I specifically mentioned that Jesus was saying to not imitate their hypocrisy. Apparently you did not in fact notice that, as I specifically pointed out that he goes on to say this. But he still says "Do everything they tell you". Essentially he's saying to not follow their example of how they disregard the commandments.

And I would like to add that what Jesus meant was if they say something right, do it, even they dont do it themselves.

That is partly correct. Which doesn't at all conflict with the idea that you're still supposed to "obey everything they tell you". That's what I've been saying. However, he said EVERYTHING. He was distinguishing what they said with their actions. "Do EVERYTHING they tell you". That means listen to the Rabbinical/Pharisaic authorities. However, this can become a murky issue as there are different traditions of Jewish authority after 70 A.D., such as the Yemenite and Sephardic traditions as well as the Chasidic and Kabalic.

 

[Meshak]

If you feel it's a manuscript related issue, you should be prepared to explain why you think that the text is wrong.

Like I said I dont pretend to be a scholar and we dont have to be a scholar to be Jesus' followers.

I know what Jesus teaches and commands. I dont follow it perfectly either, but I still know them; that's what I spread to the world as His servant.

If we have to be perfect to spread Jesus, then no one can be His evangelist.

 

[Shermana]

Like I said I dont pretend to be a scholar and we dont have to be a scholar to be Jesus' followers.

I know what Jesus teaches and commands. I dont follow it perfectly either, but I still know them; that's what I spread to the world as His servant.

If we have to be perfect to spread Jesus, then no one can be His evangelist.

And Jesus teaches and commands obedience to the Mosaic Law.

 

[Meshak]

That is partly correct. Which doesn't at all conflict with the idea that you're still supposed to "obey everything they tell you". That's what I've been saying. However, he said EVERYTHING. He was distinguishing what they said with their actions. "Do EVERYTHING they tell you". That means listen to the Rabbinical/Pharisaic authorities. However, this can become a murky issue as there are different traditions of Jewish authority after 70 A.D., such as the Yemenite and Sephardic traditions as well as the Chasidic and Kabalic.

we also should know that Jesus uses a lot of hyperboles too. That's why it is important to know the whole messages what he is preaches.

His whole messages is non-violent, unconditional love. That does not mean we should tolerate evil deeds either, because tolerating evil is not love at all.

 

[Meshak]

And Jesus teaches and commands obedience to the Mosaic Law.

and you are disregarding that Jesus upgraded OT law too. This is another out of context interpretation.

 

[Shermana]

and you are disregarding that Jesus upgraded OT law too. This is another out of context interpretation.

I've explained to you this before a few times, Jesus didn't upgrade it so much as he explained what he thought was the original intent.

"Upgrading" doesn't mean "doing away with". All he did was explain the misunderstandings and what the authorities had misinterpreted. He was explaining what Moses meant originally, like divorce for improper reasons and what "eye for an eye" meant.

The "out of context" interpretation is the idea that Jesus advocated a single element of the Mosaic Law as it was originally conveyed to be done away with.

This sentiment is explained further in the Jewish-Christian Clementine homilies, a book that unsurprisingly was not included in the orthodox church father writings.

 

[Meshak]

I've explained to you this before a few times, Jesus didn't upgrade it so much as he explained what he thought was the original intent.

then why did He change "eye for eye" to "love your enemy"?

You are disregarding His "love your enemy" sermon.

 

[Shermana]

then why did He change "eye for eye" to "love your enemy"?

You are disregarding His "love your enemy" sermon.

This as well I've explained to you, he was saying in other words "You misunderstand what eye for an eye means, it doesn't mean you have to always strike back and try to avenge yourself in all situations". It wasn't a total call against any form of "resistance". When it says "Do not resist an evildoer", the word "Resist" should be read as "take revenge". It does not mean "Allow yourself to be maimed or assaulted or killed no matter what"

Your interpretation means to allow your children to be assaulted rather than stop the attacker. I've explained that to you many times and you never give a response to that.

What you are disregarding is other people's interpretations, especially those who actually keep it in context. You should consider learning more about this "context" thing, such as by actually reading the entire passage and not just plucking out the single line.

It seems your constant emphasis on this interpretation of Jesus "loving your enemies" is the only trick in your arsenal, and you completely deny the other ways of reading it that many others have shown you as if only your interpretation is valid. That's fine to a degree, since I don't regard other people's interpretations as valid, such as yours, but I at least would recommend you consider examining the reasoning behind other's counter-examples and explanations other than just repeating and insisting that they're wrong.