Culture clash in the hallway

[Vile Atheist]

I wasn't.

Great.

 

[Vile Atheist]

the issue is that a secular, Western view of equality of the sexes, and a conservative, Islamic view are vastly unlike one another, obviously.

in the traditonal Muslim context "equality" might not mean that the sexes are ideally permitted to do the same things socially or religiously, yet that they have equal worth in the eyes of Allah, who has set standards for men and women. equal, yet different.

for a Westerner, the idea of "different yet equal" seems kind of like an oxymoron. why shouldn't a Muslim woman be "free" to do this or that, or to live and express herself as a woman in the secular west would, or be able to do whatever a man does (like run a cash register and wait on both male and female shoppers)?

these are not two worldviews that can really be reconciled.

What I find funny (in a morbid sort of way), is that in the link eselam provided, the author had to twist the meanings of "uncomfortable" words like it was a lemon in order for it to have a remotely acceptable viewpoint.

I particularly found it comical when the author got to the phrase "Beat them". That was absolutely masterful. And even after all the twisting and apologies and mistranslations and misconceptions that apparently everyone has when reading a quite plain statement like "Beat them" in order for you to find it even remotely humanely acceptable, it was STILL revolting. I would be laughing harder if this wasn't the very same surah used by some extremist Muslims to justify beating their wives. I mean, it says it quite plainly "Beat them".

I will give the author credit, though. Treating women like dog **** and assuming they cannot fend for themselves might be considered by some to be preferrable to frequent, violent physical beatings.

I am not trying to re-ignite anything nor am I saying anyone on this thread has those views. I'm merely pointing out my disagreement with the author.

And another thing I find kinda funny is that I provided many links to justify my earlier claims and they weren't even examined. Yet, I and many others actually took the time to read that garbage. Three minutes of my life I will never get back.

 

[Willamena]

What I find funny (in a morbid sort of way), is that in the link eselam provided, the author had to twist the meanings of "uncomfortable" words like it was a lemon in order for it to have a remotely acceptable viewpoint.

Or, just possibly, the words actually carry a different connotation in another culture?

An-Nisa, 34 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Vile Atheist]

Or, just possibly, the words actually carry a different connotation in another culture?

An-Nisa, 34 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can understand a few words having different connotations. But I also find it fascinating the words and phrases that appear to be brutal at first glance, also happen to be the ones whose "connotations" have been misconstrued the most apparently. I just found this to be a "coincidence" worth noting.

 

[Father Heathen]

*MOD POST*
Please keep it civil or the staff will steal your beer!
​

But that won't deter the Muslims who can't consume alcohol anyway.

 

[Vile Atheist]

But that won't deter the Muslims who can't consume alcohol anyway.

Reminds me of an old Irish song "In Heaven There Is No Beer".

 

[Father Heathen]

Do you have any idea how us Muslims feel when Westerners bare their women?

"Their" women? Women in western society are their own independent individuals who make their own choices for themselves. Secondly, there is absolutely nothing wrong, dirty or shameful about the natural beauty of the human body. And why should anyone concern themselves with the prudish insecurities of other people? If it bothers you just avert your eyes or get over it. It saddens and sickens me how some women in other societies willingly allow themselves to be subjugated doormats, servile and submissive, with no self respect. They hold their shackles close and tight as they scowl at and recoil from the liberating light of freedom and equality.

Do you have any idea how us Muslims feel when you support sexual deviance?

If it doesn't victimize or violate the rights of innocent people, why should what consenting adults decide to do in their own private, personal lives concern you? What makes you think other people's sex lives are any of your business, anyway?

 

[Willamena]

I can understand a few words having different connotations. But I also find it fascinating the words and phrases that appear to be brutal at first glance, also happen to be the ones whose "connotations" have been misconstrued the most apparently. I just found this to be a "coincidence" worth noting.

Perhaps more do, maybe many more, but you wouldn't realize it because you're looking at these ones.

 

[Vile Atheist]

Perhaps more do, maybe many more, but you wouldn't realize it because you're looking at these ones.

I admit this is nothing but my gut feeling, but I believe the author realizes deliberate maliciousness in the original scripture and knowingly tries to cover it up by playing "the mistranslation game". However, I only know a few words in Arabic and certainly not nearly enough to read the Quran in its original Arabic, so I cannot verify this for myself.

I think the gut feeling is justified in the way he tries to take "Beat them" and make it into a docile suggestion. I dunno. Just me. Seems a little too strange.

 

[Willamena]

Perhaps consider this, then:

To many Muslims the Qur'an is the Magna Carta of human rights and a large part of its concern is to free human beings from the bondage of traditionalism, authoritarianism (religious, political, economic, or any other), tribalism, racism, sexism, slavery or anything else that prohibits or inhibits human beings from actualizing the Qur'anic vision of human destiny embodied in the classic proclamation: "Towards Allah is thy limit"

Are Human Rights Compatible with Islam? by Riffat Hassan

 

[Vile Atheist]

Perhaps consider this, then:

Are Human Rights Compatible with Islam? by Riffat Hassan

I'll give it a read.

 

[Willamena]

I'll give it a read.

Hers is a very balanced opinion.

 

[themadhair]

Perhaps consider this, then:

Are Human Rights Compatible with Islam? by Riffat Hassan

From the webpage:

However, Muslim culture has reduced many, if not most, women to the position of puppets on a string, to slave-like creatures whose only purpose in life is to cater to the needs and pleasures of men.

I might take your link a bit more at face value Patty whenever I see a bit more doing in terms of this alleged koran-sanctioned justice/equality and a little less talking/cherry picking. There are comments in this thread that serve as examples that go against the vision of Islam described in your link.

 

[themadhair]

I swear there was anther Patty comment in this thread....what gives?

 

[Willamena]

From the webpage:
I might take your link a bit more at face value Patty whenever I see a bit more doing in terms of this alleged koran-sanctioned justice/equality and a little less talking/cherry picking. There are comments in this thread that serve as examples that go against the vision of Islam described in your link.

If you mean eselam, he explained that he was misunderstood. He professed support of the justice/equality position for the Koran.

 

[.lava]

1) He filed a complaint.

what was he supposed to do? he chosed official way and i personally think that is the best way if one wants to keep distance with the other person who he complaint about.

[quot]2) He was offended based on cultural differences.[/quote]

dear, your reaction also comes from cultural differences. so what's the difference between you and that Muslim guy under the light of 'being different'?

3) There are other ways he could have voiced his opposition to friendship.

such as...??

4) While it is his every right to refuse contact for whatever reason he desires, this isn't the point.
5) The point is 2). If he does not like polite people, obviously Canada isn't a country he should be in.

stop talking about it as if you witnessed it. there are poit people all over and there is no doubt there are impolite people in Canada as well. this is so funny cos you talk like all the Western people live together like a family. that is not true. whoever comes in here are so amazed by 'warmness' of Muslims and we all know it why.

Yes, in a sense, saying "Hello" did become an enlightenment sign.

what now? should i send a youtube video where you can see a parrot says 'hello'?

Especially to someone of a different race, culture, and religion. Because you see centuries ago, this wasn't so. Racism and slavery were a lot more rampant.

get a fake name and ID like Ahmad, try to tal to people, maybe apply for a job or something, then tell me about racism.

Religious fervour was the norm. Human rights? Forget it.

i won't.

In a sense, a "Hello" to a complete stranger is that. It's a recognization that everyone is equal. And surely you'll agree that both man and woman are equal?

yea OK, but as i tried to said before, why did this complaint occur now? why not before? why did it happen now? so this gu has never ever met husband before. what's the logical explanation here?

If so, then you'll see exactly why we get peeved at a story like this. Our forefathers fought and died on battlefields so we can be equal and free. When someone like this comes to our country, it sets us back.

If you do not agree that men and women should be equal, then my friend, my criticisms are levelled at you too. And not because you are a Muslim. But because you devalue fairness, justice, and equality.

if Muslim woman was not disturbed or if she did not ask help from her husband, nothing could have happened. appearently she was disturbed. so she talked aout it to her husband. it is the woman who rejects contact with stranger man. how is this not paralel with your equal rights between man and woman?

They live in the same building near each other. Why wouldn't they have met already? The complaint filed was absolutely 100% unjustified.

I thought that was a speciality that comes hand-in-hand with "honour killings".

honor killings are illegal but what he did, making an official complaint is legal so that was what he did. he is acting according to Western laws but you still do not accept it. WEIRD!!!

But while we're on the subject...

what's the SUBJECT here?

Do you have any idea how us Westerners feel when Muslims cover their women in burkas?

Muslims cover women? what? women can not cover themselves?

Do you have any idea how us Westerners feel when Afghani law dictates a man can withhold food from his wife until he gets sex?

i think that is utterly unacceptable and against Islam.

Do you have any idea how us Westerners feel when Muslims torture and execute gays in Iraq?

ohh i am afraid 1.5 million Iraqis who got killed by Westerns were not gay enough. yea that makes sense!!

Do you have any idea how us Westerners feel when Muslims execute someone for choosing to follow another religion besides Islam?

do you have any idea how we feel about that? i think you care nothing but how you feel. since all you saying is 'me me me'.

Do you have any idea how us Westerners feel when Muslim nations use barbaric, medieval punishments for crimes?

says who? a citizen of a nation that got into another nation and ruined it for oil?? or some other who entered another nation and tortured children infront of their fathers??

Do you have any idea how us Westerners feel when Muslims come to our Western nations and try to devalue all we've worked hard to achieve? Centuries of free-thinking? Hard fought and won freedoms?

you were trutly free you would notbe saying all these ignorant stuff.

Do you have any idea how us Westerners feel when we condemn all these things and in turn are called "racist" and "intolerant"?

says the man who actually making an official act equal honor killings....?

Let me know when you get around to these questions, friend.

oh i did right away and i think you junked some coffein into your veins then replied.

We aren't attacking it because it's a different culture. We don't attack you because you have a different religion. We don't attack your people because they are different. I don't know how you don't see this.

what i see for decades millions of Muslims DEAD...your words and Muslim blood!!

Cultures like these get criticized when they trample human rights.

how is it against human rights?

When a man (and his wife) refuses a common, polite greeting that is endemic to our nation on the basis that it offends him and justifies this with a difference of culture, it is quite clear this man does not belong. Yeah, he should get out.

I also find it quite odd that you seem to be very, very quiet about this man's control over his wife. Or perhaps we should "tolerate" that too?

Again, if refusing a common greeting offends you because you are Muslim (and I have no idea how it would), then it's quite clear that you should not be in such a friendly country where people DO interact with each other, have polite conversations with strangers, and people have the right to say what they wish to whomever they wish so long as they do not violate their rights (and I'm no expert on the Canadian Constitution or the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but you can bet your burka that saying "Good morning!" is NOT a violation of anyone's rights, whether they welcome the greeting or not).

yet it is his right not to talk to him. you have a problem with that?

Why on Earth would anyone be scared by someone saying "Good morning"? By a Canadian, no less. And not even a complete stranger, a neighbour whom they must have seen many, many times before.

And I don't even understand what you are asking or why you are asking that with the other questions. It's irrelevant. This guy filed a complaint because of a greeting on the basis he was offended. It was a cultural thing, apparently.

all the details are relevant if we are talking about relationships.

Preferably a situation where we can condemn violation of basic human rights without being branded "racist" or "intolerant" as such.

but it is OK to claim refusing saying hello is equal killing someone. OK, got it!





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[.lava]

I completely agree with you. I don't think anyone was saying that the Muslim man and his wife HAVE to be friends with the author.
But....


The husbands behavior was extreme enough to frighten the landlady, and the author seemed to think that the husband made vague threats to his life. That's pretty bad, even if no physical harm came to him. Especially since he was only trying to be polite.

I think you've misunderstood why people are confused and think the Muslim man was being rude....So may I try to clarify? At least as far as my understanding goes?

The author was confused and insulted by the husbands behavior because they DID meet in the hallway, and the author DID say hello to the Muslim husband and wife. (It seemed like you thought people were saying they didn't meet?)

And the confusion came when the author said hello to them, and the husband proceeded to freak out about it: report the guy to the landlady, yell at him, etc.
The more appropriate response would been to have informed the author of the article that his greeting was considered inappropriate and/or disrespectful, and to ask him politely not to do it again.

In other words, explain to him the mistake he made in a manner that would promote understanding- as opposed to 'attacking' him for an honest mistake and good intentions.


As for how the culture is viewed, I cannot speak for others. I do not agree with objectifying women, or treating them as property, but that does not mean I'm against an entire culture or religion, either. And the article does not mention how the wife is treated at home, so I think that is a non-issue for this thread and there is no conclusive evidence that the wife is being mistreated. Only that her husband is hot-tempered and perhaps jealous/possessive.


Please let me know if I've misunderstood you

i do not think saying hello to your neighbour is disrespectful. imo not knowing or ignoring people who's living next door ruins society. that is not the issue here. all these reactions RF members gave is way too much. it is even ridicules. making a great deal of it is ridicules. that just shows how Muslims being treated there. they do not want to talk....SO WHAT? there are people that i would not want to talk. people in Western nation are already having very distant relationships with others. i've seen and experienced it. so coming in here and talk about those Muslims as if so-called friendly nation have great roots of relaitoships between their citizens IS FUNNY. sharing the same culture would bring some harmony to society but that does not mean that is the only 'order' on Earth.






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[.lava]

Canada is a free country, isn't it? He is free to feel offended, what can you do about it?

ohh cos he is so offended by it and seems like he thinks it is only his right to be!




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[.lava]

Wow dude, you fell into the trap . This thread really didn't have any other purpose but to start a Flame War. Why can't you see that?

Peace be upon you.

:clap:clapTHANK YOU:clap:clap







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[themadhair]

He professed support of the justice/equality position for the Koran.

As noted earlier, the koran really doesn’t espouse such a thing (unless justice/equality has been redefined since I last checked them), but that’s irrelevant. It is hard for me to take such a profession of supporting equal rights given the comments eselam has made showing the contrary in this thread. I’ll go further than that and present the supposition that eselem’s comments show a lack of understanding of what the concept of ‘equal rights for women’ even means.