Death penalty: Are you for or against it?

[Saint Frankenstein]

The death penalty is murder. The government premeditated on the intent to kill someone else. How can you be for the death penalty and against abortion? Both are lives. The first the gov takes the life. The latter, its the doctor. Regardless of how they are killed, the former firing squad or chair, the latter suction or whatever tool they use to tear up the fetis, they are both murdered.

I see a contradiction in your post and belief. One, the baby and adult are murdered. Yet, you disagree with murder, disagree with the former and agree with the later.

The second is your faith. The Church, CCC, and Bible never says take matters into your own hands (hence that God does everything...the killing, the rules to dont kill, etc) Its all by His command. The Church has ministries to Prevent crimes happening not ministries to kill the people who commited the crimes. The CCC talks about the santity of life. In Mass IS about Life.

So, I dont understand how you see the death penalty as good.

Thats confusing in itself.

Your confusion is on you, not me. Lol.

First off, "murder" is a legal term. Sometimes we call killings of a sort we don't personally like "murder", but they aren't considered murder under the law (e.g. "meat is murder" and "abortion is murder"). So the death penalty, where legal, isn't murder. A drone taking out a terrorist isn't murder. Etc. But if I go and gun down my neighbors? That's murder.

Second, I said that I side with innocent life. A little baby is innocent, but a murderer, a rapist, a zoosadist who gets off on brutally torturing dogs, cats, rabbits, etc. to death, etc. are not innocent. They are guilty of grievous harm, causing great suffering, pain and taking the life of an innocent. That's the real difference. I don't understand how you're not able to see that.

Third, the Bible says nothing against the death penalty. God in the OT even commanded the Israelites to carry out the death penalty for various crimes and to set up courts of law. Apparently, God has a liking for law and order. Even Jesus didn't say the death penalty was wrong and He was wrongfully convicted! Also, the Catholic Church has never issued an authoritative statement that it is not possible for a Catholic to support the death penalty and remain in good standing with the Church. So Catholics are permitted to support the death penalty, unlike abortion.

Hopefully that clears things up for you.

 

[Jainarayan]

Whoever suggested that was OK?
I'm the one arguing against people killing each other here. You are the one trying to justify it.
Tom

I am advocating just punishment. I am not justifying it because it needs no justification or defense. Kill someone in cold blood, and you yourself are killed. Blood for blood, life for life. It's fair that the parents, sisters, brothers, grandparents of people shot in cold blood can lose a loved one and the murderer keeps his life? Not in my book.

 

[Jainarayan]

"Take a life, forfeit yours."
... so then you take a life in turn (or have some civil servant do it on your behalf), but don't forfeit your own life? It's hypocritical.

Don't get me wrong: the death penalty would still be unethical even if it was supported with a consistent justification... but you don't even have that much.

So what do you suggest as punishment?

 

[columbus]

.

the fact remains that people cannot go about shooting and killing other people and expect to get off with just a prison term.

Yes actually they can.
Because they are not in charge. We are. And we can be morally better than they are.
Tom

 

[Jainarayan]

.
Yes actually they can.
Because they are not in charge. We are. And we can be morally better than they are.
Tom

That's not moral. That's thinking you're morally superior. That lets people, aka limousine liberals and latte liberals, feel all warm and cozy. That "morality" just gave that person a better life than they'd probably have in the outside world. On my tax dollar.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Your confusion is on you, not me. Lol.

First off, "murder" is a legal term. Sometimes we call killings of a sort we don't personally like "murder", but they aren't considered murder under the law (e.g. "meat is murder" and "abortion is murder"). So the death penalty, where legal, isn't murder. A drone taking out a terrorist isn't murder. Etc. But if I go and gun down my neighbors? That's murder.

Second, I said that I side with innocent life. A little baby is innocent, but a murderer, a rapist, a zoosadist who gets off on brutally torturing dogs, cats, rabbits, etc. to death, etc. are not innocent. They are guilty of grievous harm, causing great suffering, pain and taking the life of an innocent. That's the real difference. I don't understand how you're not able to see that.

Third, the Bible says nothing against the death penalty. God in the OT even commanded the Israelites to carry out the death penalty for various crimes and to set up courts of law. Apparently, God has a liking for law and order. Even Jesus didn't say the death penalty was wrong and He was wrongfully convicted! Also, the Catholic Church has never issued an authoritative statement that it is not possible for a Catholic to support the death penalty and remain in good standing with the Church. So Catholics are permitted to support the death penalty, unlike abortion.

Hopefully that clears things up for you.

I know we disagree and I am sure you understand me without going into samantics of the exact def. words. Understand the context.

Innocent or guilty, taking a life is wrong. Why play God?

 

[BSM1]

That's my attitude, as well. Lol. I guess we're just old-school about this.

One problem with many of today's more politically correct (and/or liberal) types is that they no longer take the responsibility for their or their families' safety and protection.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I know we disagree and I am sure you understand me without going into samantics of the exact def. words. Understand the context.

Innocent or guilty, taking a life is wrong. Why play God?

How is it "playing God" when God Himself in the Bible commanded the Israelites to execute people for crimes? Yeah, there's Christian pacifists and such, but I'm not one of them. I'm an anarcho-communist who has a conservative side. I'm an old-school leftist, not some '60s New Leftist with their ivory tower theorizing and whining. I don't have a problem with violence when appropriately used. Catholicism also doesn't say that Catholics must be pacifists, either. The military has its own Archdiocese, duh.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's fair that the parents, sisters, brothers, grandparents of people shot in cold blood can lose a loved one and the murderer keeps his life? Not in my book.

But what of the parents, sisters, brothers, and grandparents of the killer? They too lose a loved one when the state executes someone. The motivations to kill in the name of vengeance and justice is very selfish, and the fact that additional people are going lose someone like the victims loved ones lost someone is not really considered.

 

[suncowiam]

One problem with many of today's more politically correct (and/or liberal) types is that they no longer take the responsibility for their or their families' safety and protection.

Why do you assume liberals aren't taking responsibility for protecting their families? I don't think having political differences suggests this.

I agree with capital punishment but not sure how your comment is adding to this...

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

One problem with many of today's more politically correct (and/or liberal) types is that they no longer take the responsibility for their or their families' safety and protection.

Yes, society is growing increasingly castrated.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How is it "playing God" when God Himself in the Bible commanded the Israelites to execute people for crimes? Yeah, there's Christian pacifists and such, but I'm not one of them. I'm an anarcho-communist who has a conservative side. I'm an old-school leftist, not some '60s New Leftist with their ivory tower theorizing and whining. I don't have a problem with violence when appropriately used. Catholicism also doesn't say that Catholics must be pacifists, either. The military has its own Archdiocese, duh.

God killed. Are christians suppossed to follow His example?

They had killings by the Church (not just) through christian history. Saying one agrees with murder of a life is like thinking of all the Christians who were killing pagans.

When I say "Why play God?" Im saying He is in control of the concequences of our actions Not Humans. He told the Isrealites to kill men, women, and children. Yet, christians for-DP seem to act like God and kill people as if they have the right over another persons life. NO. GOD has the right to Christians lives. If Catholicism sees differently, then I completely disagree. I always saw the Church helping others.

Like I said. Catholic prision ministries help criminals by spreading the Word not killing criminals because "their CCC doesnt say not to."

The guilty will recieve consequences of his actions. It is not for us to make those consequences if it impunes on his first and last given right. To live.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

God killed. Are christians suppossed to follow His example?

They had killings by the Church (not just) through christian history. Saying one agrees with murder of a life is like thinking of all the Christians who were killing pagans.

When I say "Why play God?" Im saying He is in control of the concequences of our actions Not Humans. He told the Isrealites to kill men, women, and children. Yet, christians for-DP seem to act like God and kill people as if they have the right over another persons life. NO. GOD has the right to Christians lives. If Catholicism sees differently, then I completely disagree. I always saw the Church helping others.

Like I said. Catholic prision ministries help criminals by spreading the Word not killing criminals because "their CCC doesnt say not to."

The guilty will recieve consequences of his actions. It is not for us to make those consequences if it impunes on his first and last given right. To live.

You're all over the place. I didn't put this in the Religious Debates section. You don't agree with capital punishment, and I do. Fine. Move on and stop rambling. We're never going to agree.

 

[suncowiam]

But what of the parents, sisters, brothers, and grandparents of the killer? They too lose a loved one when the state executes someone. The motivations to kill in the name of vengeance and justice is very selfish, and the fact that additional people are going lose someone like the victims loved ones lost someone is not really considered.

Shouldn't the killer bear the blame of his own actions even in this regards? Just by murdering someone, this is already going to negatively affect his family relationship. At least, I assume normal families will not be accepting of such actions...

 

[Jainarayan]

But what of the parents, sisters, brothers, and grandparents of the killer? They too lose a loved one when the state executes someone.

Yes they do, and quite honestly, I don't care about them. That family is not my problem or concern, nor do they have my sympathy (or enmity, I simply don't care about them). All I care is that I lost someone, someone in my family. And someone damn well better pay for it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You're all over the place. I didn't put this in the Religious Debates section. You don't agree with capital punishment, and I do. Fine. Move on and stop rambling. We're never going to agree.

I dont understand your position. There is a difference between learning from another perspective and debating as if no other perspective is right.

How can anyone learn anything without giving up and saying "okay. Move on."

What is the logic behind taking a life?

 

[Jainarayan]

When I say "Why play God?" Im saying He is in control of the concequences of our actions Not Humans.

But he is not in control of the laws of the US. I mentioned David Berkowitz and Mark David Chapman before... I don't see what God has done to exact punishment from them, nor so I care to sit around on my duff waiting for a God who may or may not exist to do what our laws should do. Moreover we are in control of our own actions. The problem is that no one wants to take responsibility. Nice little Eagles song sums it up:

I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' "Don't blame me"
They point their crooked little fingers at everybody else
Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat
...

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if I gave you some cash
The more I think about it, Old Billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers, kill 'em tonight
You don't want to work, you want to live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing ... Get Over It

Writer(s): Don Henley, Keith C. Follese, Glenn Lewis Frey, Stephanie Kay Bentley
Copyright: Breaker Maker Music, Red Cloud Music, Universal Music - Careers, Black Cypress Music

 

[BSM1]

Why do you assume liberals aren't taking responsibility for protecting their families? I don't think having political differences suggests this.

I agree with capital punishment but not sure how your comment is adding to this...

Would you kill someone to keep them from killing you or a loved one?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But he is not in control of the laws of the US. I mentioned David Berkowitz and Mark David Chapman before... I don't see what God has done to exact punishment from them, nor so I care to sit around on my duff waiting for a God who may or may not exist to do what our laws should do. Moreover we are in control of our own actions. The problem is that no one wants to take responsibility. Nice little Eagles song sums it up:

I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' "Don't blame me"
They point their crooked little fingers at everybody else
Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat
...

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if I gave you some cash
The more I think about it, Old Billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers, kill 'em tonight
You don't want to work, you want to live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing ... Get Over It

Writer(s): Don Henley, Keith C. Follese, Glenn Lewis Frey, Stephanie Kay Bentley
Copyright: Breaker Maker Music, Red Cloud Music, Universal Music - Careers, Black Cypress Music

Going by Catholicism. In my view, no one has the right to take a life. I dont see the logistics in doing so.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I dont understand your position. There is a difference between learning from another perspective and debating as if no other perspective is right.

How can anyone learn anything without giving up and saying "okay. Move on."

What is the logic behind taking a life?

What's so hard to understand? The death penalty is about justice, punishment and removing demons from this world who have proven to be a danger to others and who can't be rehabilitated.