Did Jesus say he was God???

[Muffled]

So what you think I'm just making this stuff up? The words listed in John 8:58 are direct from the lexicon. The lexicons do not side with you on this assertion. If you think I'm wrong then bring forth your proof. I'm going to give you some proof that I'm correct on this and it is coming from "YOUR" christian bretheren using the KJV AND a lexicon....

The whole verse
BLB (KJV) Jhn 8

EGO
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

EIMI
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Where did I say it was past tense? (AM) as the lexicon difines it can mean one or the other or both at the same time. They, like most scholars use the lexicon to make sure the verse is rendered properly. This site uses the lexicon to deine ALL of the scriptures. It is up to you to prove them wrong. Again, your problem is that verse DOES NOT indicate Yeshua to be God. It's not like I translated it. This was doen by scholars. The proof is right in your face and you still persist to challenge me on it. If you take issue with scholars holding to Yeshua being God by that verse then take it up with them and ask them for their exegetical proof. They will undoubtedly have to use some sort of dictionary or lexicon. The writer did not submit YHWH in that verse so we can't say that Yeshua was implying because there is no evidence there. When you look at the words and what they mean it is crystal clear that Yeshua did not suggest he was God....

John 8:58
Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!

John 8:58 (KJV)
I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am

These verses are practically identical and they adhere to the lexicographical rules above.


:sarcastic

I can see the source of you confusion. There was one verse (not the one we are talking about) where EIMI was translated "I have been." There were over 300 translations including the one we are talking about where it is translated "I am"
Of course you didn't find the Hebrew in a Greek text. Were you expecting to?
Ex 3:14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Here is your JHVH and as you can see at the end of the verse Yahweh uses the shortened form of His name and this corresponds to Jesus saying "I am."

I don't agree with the translation. I think it ignores the way English expresses itself. I prefer "I am the one who is." Literal translations are too often removed from English usage which is why I think the New World Translation is deplorable.

Because the context is that of Moses asking a hypothetical question "what is His name", the personal pronourn "His" requires a personal pronoun "who" not an impersonal pronoun "that." I don't know Hebrew very well but I can tell when a ltter is repeated it is the same word "H" is "am", therefore there is only one "I" in his statement: lierally "I am who is" but in English that is improper because the "who" needs a subject to define. Therefore the logical choice is "the one", since it is the least implicative and most used phraseology. The "is" reflects the proper declination of the verb "to be": "I am", "He is."

 

[Muffled]

Don't really belong to any religion. I grew up in a multi-religious family. Mother and father side were christian and uncle's side was muslim.

I am sure you would be welcome to join if you were willing to ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior but then only God has the right to be your Lord and Savior which seems to be a problem for you.

 

[Popeyesays]

I am sure you would be welcome to join if you were willing to ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior but then only God has the right to be your Lord and Savior which seems to be a problem for you.

Well, he'd be welcome in the Baha`i community. And we're perfectly happy to take people who respect the Station of Jesus and Muhammed. Where you and I differ is what that Station was in essence.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Francine]

I am sure you would be welcome to join if you were willing to ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior but then only God has the right to be your Lord and Savior which seems to be a problem for you.

What if you ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior and Jesus says, "Naw, don't wanna." ?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

What if you ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior and Jesus says, "Naw, don't wanna." ?

John 23-24 KJV:
" Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men..."

 

[Francine]

John 23-24 KJV:
" Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men..."

Luke.13:[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are [26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. [27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

 

[millerrod]

One question. If jesus was God, How can he be the son of God?

A single tree has more than one branch yet though the branches be many it is but one tree. God , Christ and the Holy Spirit are one tree.

 

[millerrod]

What if you ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior and Jesus says, "Naw, don't wanna." ?

He would never say that actually he was beaten,had spikes driven through his hands and feet, hung from a cross died and was risen. Just for YOU and I Jesus Loves becuause Jesus is the essense of Love. Sister if you have ever felt or experienced Love, you have felt and experienced Jesus. All Jesus asks is that you take that Love into your hands and share it with all those around you.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I can see the source of you confusion.

Not confused at all. As I assumed you would..You're going to try and link Exodus 3:14 to make a connection to John 8:58 and these two verses have nothing to do with each other. The confusion is on your part.

Of course you didn't find the Hebrew in a Greek text. Were you expecting to?

What are you talking about? In the third century the Septuagint translated (ehyeh asher ehyeh) into the greek (ego eimi ho on) as opposed to 1st/2nd century Aquila and Theodotion rendering as (esomai hos esomai) which litteraly translates as "I will be who I will be". This, to me, is more in keeping with the hebrew due the fact that the root of (ehyeh) is (hayah) which means (to be). It's the same as what we see in verse 3:12. For some strange reason scholars translate it as (I am).

Here is your JHVH and as you can see at the end of the verse Yahweh uses the shortened form of His name and this corresponds to Jesus saying "I am."

Again that has nothing to do with John 8:58 regardles of how much you want to sretch it.

I don't agree with the translation. I think it ignores the way English expresses itself. I prefer "I am the one who is." Literal translations are too often removed from English usage which is why I think the New World Translation is deplorable.

Well I'm not a Jehovah's Witness so I have no idea what you mean. But I still think your rendering of 3:14 is incorrect.

And so we're back to square one. John 8:58 has nothing to do with 3:14. I guess John 8:58 is all in how it is translated. I contend that the KJV scholars were bias in their translation to try and make the same connection you have even though the verse means (I existed). The translation "before Abraham was born I existed" makes sense given the testimony in Yeshua's prayer later in the same book of John.

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify you, me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.

Interesting that the word at the end of his statement (existed) is in the same family as the word being used in John 8:58 to mean he existed before something. In 8:58 he said he existed before Abraham and in 17:5 he illustrates he existed with his god before the world was created. But, to me, the emphasis needs to be on the word (WITH)....​

 

[2ducklow]

1 pet 1.20 proves that Jesus did not exist before he was born, so he cannot be God.

1 Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

YOu can't foreknow someone who already exists, you can only foreknow someone who doesn't exist otherwise you would know that person if they existed.

Plus, no one is their own daddy. So since scripture plainly states that Jesus is the son of God, he cannot be God for that would make him his own daddy, which would be nonsense.

 

[2ducklow]

Not confused at all. As I assumed you would..You're going to try and link Exodus 3:14 to make a connection to John 8:58 and these two verses have nothing to do with each other. The confusion is on your part.



What are you talking about? In the third century the Septuagint translated (ehyeh asher ehyeh) into the greek (ego eimi ho on) as opposed to 1st/2nd century Aquila and Theodotion rendering as (esomai hos esomai) which litteraly translates as "I will be who I will be". This, to me, is more in keeping with the hebrew due the fact that the root of (ehyeh) is (hayah) which means (to be). It's the same as what we see in verse 3:12. For some strange reason scholars translate it as (I am).



Again that has nothing to do with John 8:58 regardles of how much you want to sretch it.



Well I'm not a Jehovah's Witness so I have no idea what you mean. But I still think your rendering of 3:14 is incorrect.

And so we're back to square one. John 8:58 has nothing to do with 3:14. I guess John 8:58 is all in how it is translated. I contend that the KJV scholars were bias in their translation to try and make the same connection you have even though the verse means (I existed). The translation "before Abraham was born I existed" makes sense given the testimony in Yeshua's prayer later in the same book of John.

Jesus was saying that he was the one prophesised to come even before abraham existed. It should read 'Before Abraham was I am he." because in Greek he is understood though not stated. As in the case of John 8.22 where he is understood though not stated. This occurs frequently in Greek.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Notice that the KJV scholars put he in italics meaning it isn't in the Greek but it is the same two words as in John 8.58, namely ego emi.

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify you, me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.

but this verse should be interpreted in light of these two verses.

1 Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

and

John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;

Jesus asked for the Glory that Adam lost in the garden before the world began and in verse. 22 he gives that glory of God's own self to us. Jesus was asking for the Glory of God's own self for us as a stand in just as Jesus was a stand in for us at his baptism and his crucifixtion.

Interesting that the word at the end of his statement (existed) is in the same family as the word being used in John 8:58 to mean he existed before something. In 8:58 he said he existed before Abraham and in 17:5 he illustrates he existed with his god before the world was created. But, to me, the emphasis needs to be on the word (WITH)....​

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Jesus was saying that he was the one prophesised to come even before abraham existed. It should read 'Before Abraham was I am he." because in Greek he is understood though not stated. As in the case of John 8.22 where he is understood though not stated. This occurs frequently in Greek.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I have seen it rendered that way in a few verses. I agree to a certain degree on the rendering. The question would be did Yeshua mean it the way you render it the same way in Aramaic? Maybe.....

But I have no problem with the rendering. Because it would be talking about the Messiah and not him as God. But I can also render it with the (he) at the end....

John 8:58
Jesus answered, "The truth is, I am he that existed before Abraham was even born!


But I will stick with the traditional meaning without the (he).

John 8:58
Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!

Notice that the KJV scholars put he in italics meaning it isn't in the Greek but it is the same two words as in John 8.58, namely ego emi.

The NKJV I have doesn't have the (he). The RSV that I use doesn't have the (he). But I do see what you mean.


but this verse should be interpreted in light of these two verses.

1 Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

and

John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;

I can get with that....

Jesus asked for the Glory that Adam lost in the garden before the world began and in verse. 22 he gives that glory of God's own self to us. Jesus was asking for the Glory of God's own self for us as a stand in just as Jesus was a stand in for us at his baptism and his crucifixtion.

I guess...I never saw it that way......but it is interesting......

Welcome to the Forum...........

 

[Popeyesays]

A single tree has more than one branch yet though the branches be many it is but one tree. God , Christ and the Holy Spirit are one tree.

The religion of God is a tree. Adam to Abraham, to Moses, to Jesus, is a main branch. Another is Abraham Zoroaster to Krshna to Buddha. Another is Jesus to Muhammed to Baha`u'llah.

THe roots of the tree may have developed from a spiritual seed, but those roots are rooted in this material world. Anything root4ed in this material world cannot be God.

Regards,
Scott

 

[2ducklow]

I have seen it rendered that way in a few verses. I agree to a certain degree on the rendering. The question would be did Yeshua mean it the way you render it the same way in Aramaic? Maybe.....

But I have no problem with the rendering. Because it would be talking about the Messiah and not him as God. But I can also render it with the (he) at the end....

John 8:58
Jesus answered, "The truth is, I am he that existed before Abraham was even born!


But I will stick with the traditional meaning without the (he).

John 8:58
Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!






The NKJV I have doesn't have the (he). The RSV that I use doesn't have the (he). But I do see what you mean.


but this verse should be interpreted in light of these two verses.



I can get with that....



I guess...I never saw it that way......but it is interesting......

Welcome to the Forum...........

Thank you for the welcome.

John 8:28 Jesus therefore said, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things.

Notice ‘he’ in italics above, another example of ego emi in the same chapter 8 of John where he is implied. We do the same thing in English , “who is here?” “I am (he)” We just say I am but we mean I am he.

Here is one proof that the Jews didn’t consider Jesus to be claiming to be God when he said ego emi in John 8.58.

John 9:22 These things said his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man should confess him to be Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

The Jews agreed to put him out if he claimed to be the Christ. Not if he claimed to be God. Surely if they thought that Jesus was saying he was God they would have put people out for saying he was God. That seems to me that it would have been a much worse offense to be claiming to be YHWH than to be claiming to be the Christ,
But further on there is even more convincing proof in my opinion.

John 10:24-25 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

The Jews wanted a clear declaration from Jesus that he was the Christ instead of beating around the bush about it so to speak. So Jesus says, “I told you already”. When did Jesus tell them already? Why in John 8.58. which is why they picked up stones to cast at him both times.
John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Why did they pick up stones to stone him? 2 reasons blasphemy (claiming to be the Christ) and (In their eyes) making himself equal with god by saying I and my Father are one.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Thank you for the welcome.

John 8:28 Jesus therefore said, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things.

Notice ‘he’ in italics above, another example of ego emi in the same chapter 8 of John where he is implied. We do the same thing in English , “who is here?” “I am (he)” We just say I am but we mean I am he.

I can go along with that. This type of translation technique is dependant on the context. When we look in other areas that contain (ego eimi) it doesn't seem correct to insert (he).

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Of course it wouldn't sound right to insert (he) in this verse. But again, for the most part I agree with you.

Here is one proof that the Jews didn’t consider Jesus to be claiming to be God when he said ego emi in John 8.58.

John 9:22 These things said his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man should confess him to be Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

The Jews agreed to put him out if he claimed to be the Christ. Not if he claimed to be God. Surely if they thought that Jesus was saying he was God they would have put people out for saying he was God. That seems to me that it would have been a much worse offense to be claiming to be YHWH than to be claiming to be the Christ,

But further on there is even more convincing proof in my opinion.

John 10:24-25 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

The Jews wanted a clear declaration from Jesus that he was the Christ instead of beating around the bush about it so to speak. So Jesus says, “I told you already”. When did Jesus tell them already? Why in John 8.58. which is why they picked up stones to cast at him both times.
John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Why did they pick up stones to stone him? 2 reasons blasphemy (claiming to be the Christ) and (In their eyes) making himself equal with god by saying I and my Father are one.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Well, for the most part I'm in agreement with you. It's others here who believe Yeshua Is God.....I don't believe for one moment Yeshua is God, said he was God or taught his followers he was God. I have cited some of the same verses you have to show he wasn't God.

John
3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure.

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 8:28
.........I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 20:17
........I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my god, and your god.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven.........

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Master of heaven and earth, because you hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.


John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, whom YOU HAVE SENT.

So YES. You and I are in agreement. I love John 17:3 especially since it's coming from Yeshua himself. It can't get any more simple than this verse as well as John 20:17

 

[2ducklow]

I can go along with that. This type of translation technique is dependant on the context. When we look in other areas that contain (ego eimi) it doesn't seem correct to insert (he).

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Of course it wouldn't sound right to insert (he) in this verse. But again, for the most part I agree with you.



Well, for the most part I'm in agreement with you. It's others here who believe Yeshua Is God.....I don't believe for one moment Yeshua is God, said he was God or taught his followers he was God. I have cited some of the same verses you have to show he wasn't God.

John
3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure.

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 8:28
.........I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 20:17
........I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my god, and your god.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven.........

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Master of heaven and earth, because you hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.


John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, whom YOU HAVE SENT.

So YES. You and I are in agreement. I love John 17:3 especially since it's coming from Yeshua himself. It can't get any more simple than this verse as well as John 20:17

Refreshing to talk with someone who uses logic instead of illogic. I wonder is there any doctrine in all of Christendom more illogical than the Trinity doctrine? I can't think of any off hand more loaded with illogic than Trinity.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Refreshing to talk with someone who uses logic instead of illogic. I wonder is there any doctrine in all of Christendom more illogical than the Trinity doctrine? I can't think of any off hand more loaded with illogic than Trinity.

I don't think so........

There are too many verses where Yeshua gives praise to his god and tells us (explicitly) he has a god. Most trinitarians tell mean that "christ", as they call him, (IMPLICITLY) stated that he was God but I find their claims pointing to these scripture to be out of context. Most of them say.....well when you observe Jesus in the scriptures you are seeing either his human side or his divine (God) side.

Then I'm reminded of the story of the fig tree. Surely if Yeshua was God he would have know the fig tree was not in season to bear fruit. Then when he cursed the tree and it died....surely that must have been his divine side wielding such great power since mere men can't do such a thing....Then I have to ask the question....If he was wielding his divine side then surely God would not have cursed the tree since he is the creator of the seasons and surely he would have know that the tree was not in season to grow fruit.......?????...............interesting!

 

[Marko Jibrini]

I belive that Jesus was a great man, human not the God. He was the prophet of the God and he will be back.

 

[2ducklow]

I don't think so........

There are too many verses where Yeshua gives praise to his god and tells us (explicitly) he has a god. Most trinitarians tell mean that "christ", as they call him, (IMPLICITLY) stated that he was God but I find their claims pointing to these scripture to be out of context. Most of them say.....well when you observe Jesus in the scriptures you are seeing either his human side or his divine (God) side.

the whole argument that Jesus has two natures, as trinitarians put it, is a farce for this reason. God is not a nature, and God is not a kind. spirit and man are two kinds. So when they say Jesus is fully man and fully God, that is like saying President Bush is fully man and fully President. God, King, President, Prime Minister are all offices. There are many types of beings that are Gods, Some humans are Gods, some Idols are Gods, Angels, men and judges are called Gods in the Bible. So many different kinds of beings are all God. The problem that trintarians are attempting to address with their 'fully God and fully man 'argument is "How can Jesus be two beings and at the same time be one being?" Although they will never admit to it, that is the problem they refuse to face directly and will only face indirectly with invalid arguments such as "fully man and fully God'' which of course does not address the problem at all.
They can't face the problem because it would condemn their theology even in their own eyes.

Then I'm reminded of the story of the fig tree. Surely if Yeshua was God he would have know the fig tree was not in season to bear fruit. Then when he cursed the tree and it died....surely that must have been his divine side wielding such great power since mere men can't do such a thing....Then I have to ask the question....If he was wielding his divine side then surely God would not have cursed the tree since he is the creator of the seasons and surely he would have know that the tree was not in season to grow fruit.......?????...............interesting!

II don't know if the fig tree was out of season or not, but if it was, then Jesus would have known that as most anyone in that day and location would have. WE had 2 fig trees in our back yard when I was a kid and they always gave figs in july and august. So if that was the case , then he was just using it as an example.
Jesus couldn't heal a pimple, It was his God, God the Father who did all the miracles not Jesus,.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

God the Father did all the works, and gave Jesus the words to speak that he spoke. It wasn't his divine side doing the works, it was God in him doing the works.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God was in Christ, not God was Christ. God a spirit being indwelt the fleshly body of Jesus.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

None of it is evidence of divinity. You cannot contain the ocean in a teacup, and God the Creator cannot be contained within all of Hisx Creation, much less the body of ONE human being.


Regards.

Scott

That means god is limited and not infinite.