Do Christians really overly persecute homosexuals?

[fallingblood]

First, I think the harsh reaction you got from the beginning was from your wording. When you say "overly persecute homosexuals", it makes it sound like you think there's a level of persecution that's acceptable, and these people go past that line.

Second, as has been explained, it may only be a minority of Christians who act out against the LGBT community, but it's the majority of them that think there's something wrong/bad about LGBT's, and that creates as much persecution as the minority who are active about it.

I agree, my wording was not chosen in the best manner. I would not want to suggest that there should be allowable persecution.

Christians do find something wrong with homosexuality. And that fact does cause some problems. But I don't think it is as bad as some homosexuals make it out to be. I don't want to down play that actual struggle, because I know there is still a ways to go. But I think when it is blown out of proportion, all it does is harm the good that is being done.

 

[fallingblood]

How hypocritical is it to say gay people should never compare their struggle to the struggle of black people, and then have the audacity to compare your struggle as an American Jew and atheist to the struggle of gay people?

Not hypocritical at all. You simply didn't understand what I was saying. I never said my struggle is equal to, nor did I suggest it was. Please reread what I stated, and the context of that statement.

 

[fallingblood]

Are you being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, or are you really that ignorant?

I would actually like to know all of the rights. I'm not talking about where they are discriminated against. I'm talking about where there rights have been taken away.

 

[Tristesse]

I would actually like to know all of the rights. I'm not talking about where they are discriminated against. I'm talking about where there rights have been taken away.

The right to marry whom they chose. Need there be more?

 

[Magic Man]

So, since I'm discriminated against as a Jew, and an atheist, it is alright for me to equate my personal struggle with that of homosexuals?

To a degree, sure. However, I'd say it would be better for you to relate your experience as a Jewish atheist to that of a homosexual rather than equate it to that.

It is alright to state that my personal struggle is similar to that of what blacks felt a few decades ago?

Sure. It's similar in some ways, but not the main ways. You still don't have laws against you like black people did and gay people do now.

It is alright for me to attack anyone who may discriminate against me in anyway, or say that I'm a sinner? [/quoet]

It depends on what you mean by "attack". If you mean "start threads questioning their preaching against people like you", then attack away. If you mean, "physically attack" or "insult and belittle in ways that have nothing to do with their views on homosexuality", then no.

You are misrepresenting what I stated. Being such, it does not warrant a rebuttal.

No, I'm not. You said they don't have it as bad as some other people who are persecuted. That's true, but that doesn't mean they should just suck it up and take it.

So where do we draw the line?

The law. If you can do what everyone else can freely, and you're protected under the law just as everyone else is, then that's the line.

I feel some persecution for looking Arab. I feel some persecution because I have a darker skin complexion and people in my community believe that I'm Native American. I feel persecution because I'm a Jew. I feel persecution because of my religious beliefs. Where should the line be drawn?

Do you still have the same rights as everyone else?

 

[Magic Man]

I agree, my wording was not chosen in the best manner. I would not want to suggest that there should be allowable persecution.

Christians do find something wrong with homosexuality. And that fact does cause some problems. But I don't think it is as bad as some homosexuals make it out to be. I don't want to down play that actual struggle, because I know there is still a ways to go. But I think when it is blown out of proportion, all it does is harm the good that is being done.

Do you ever think maybe it seems blown out of proportion to you because of your view of it? When you try to downplay the magnitude of the group's suffering, it probably just makes people try that much harder to make you see how bad it is.

 

[Duck]

I would actually like to know all of the rights. I'm not talking about where they are discriminated against. I'm talking about where there rights have been taken away.

Employment equality. In more than half of the states (talking about the US here) I can be fired for the flavor of adult I **** on the weekend.
Marriage equality. In 24 states, I cannot marry the person of my choice. In 11 states I am a second class citizen (some partnership protections exist, but not the same as those for heterosexuals, and that class of protection is not available to heteros). In at least 2 states my established rights (through court or legislation) have been REMOVED, largely through the efforts of christians.
Healthcare decisions. In the 24 states where I cannot marry (because no form of same-sex union is recognized or sactioned), I cannot make healthcare decisions for my partner. Truthfully, I am unsure of the capacity to make healthcare decisions in any of the other states.
Death benefits. In ALL of the United States, I am unable to collect the death benefits associated with Social Security, Medicare and for that matter my spouses private pensions, my house and spouses estate left to me is taxed excessively by the federal government. This of course despite living in and or being ACTUALLY married according to the state or jurisdiction I live in.
Military Service. I am only allowed to serve in the military if I do not: have sex (EVER), reveal to anyone (EVER) that I am not interested in ******* their sister because I would rather have their brother, or in anyway reveal that I am homosexual. What constitutes "revealing" my homosexuality is rather vague, and at times can include a third party, a police officer noticing magazines in my car's backseat, a questionable search of my civlian residence by the police, and at other times DOES NOT include video of my kissing my lover.

I am sure that given a little time I could find more, or be more specific as there are some 1000 rights, benefits and responsibilities granted automatically to you and your female wife that you met the night before last in Vegas that you just decided to marry in the drive through chapel officiated by Elvis impersonators.

 

[Smoke]

I would actually like to know all of the rights. I'm not talking about where they are discriminated against. I'm talking about where there rights have been taken away.

I've already listed some, but you ignored that. Nobody here has the time to list them all. In the case of marriage alone there are well over a thousand rights and benefits that go along with being married. The General Accounting Office identified 1138 such rights and benefits at the federal level, and depending on where you live there can be hundreds more at the state level.

In addition to the rights and benefits of marriage, there are other areas in which we're discriminated against under the law.

We can't serve in the military. We aren't covered by housing and employment anti-discrimination laws. Same-sex couples are barred from adopting in a number of states, and in Florida, gay people can't adopt even singly. Gay parents have lost custody of their biological children solely on the basis of their being gay.

Laws making gay sex illegal were only voided nationwide by a Supreme Court decision in 2003. Plenty of people in the South are still denouncing that decision. The first time it went to the Supreme Court, in 1986, we lost. But we kept struggling -- or "whining," as you would have it.

We only began to be covered by federal hate crimes laws in October of last year. The result of more "whining."

Your OP asks whether Christians overly persecute us. The answer is that although there are Jewish and Muslim groups that are just as virulently anti-gay as any Christian group, Jews and Muslims are small minorities in this country. Almost all of the persecution of gay people in the U.S. is caused by Christians. A lot of times they don't have to resort to the law, because really, what choice does a fifteen-year-old have when a parent tells him he's going to go away to a Christian brainwashing camp or he's going to be thrown out of the house? They can, and do, do a whole lot of dirty, hateful things in the name of their god.

But I don't think you're really interested, and I think you'll continue to downplay anything anybody tells you, because you just don't like to hear gay people "whine" about their problems.

 

[Smoke]

Do you ever think maybe it seems blown out of proportion to you because of your view of it? When you try to downplay the magnitude of the group's suffering, it probably just makes people try that much harder to make you see how bad it is.

Maybe. Honestly, it just inclines me to write him off as a person of ill will.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I don't understand how in a land of purported equal rights, one can "blow it out of proportion" when they are arbitrarily denied access to this equality. What exactly would be a proportional response?

 

[Duck]

I don't understand how in a land of purported equal rights, one can "blow it out of proportion" when they are arbitrarily denied access to this equality. What exactly would be a proportional response?

Sucking it up and not whining, apparently.

ETA: Oh, yeah, and definitely not comparing ones lack of equality with the lack of equality felt by other minority groups in the past.

 

[fallingblood]

I think I'm done with this discussion. What I've said has been grossly misrepresented. I've been outright called a bigot. It has been insinuated that I'm a moron. I've been attacked personally simply because of my stance which some simply are unwilling to try to understand.

Yes, my wording when I began the post was not well chosen. However, I have over and over again tried to explain what I was trying to say. Some here simply are unwilling to listen and would rather personally attack me by misrepresenting what I have stated.

I've never insinuated that all homosexuals whine. I've stated very clearly that I do believe that there is a homosexual struggle, and that they are being persecuted. I've stated that I believe the persecution of homosexuals is wrong. I've stated that I believe they should have equal rights. I've stated multiple times that I do believe there is a legitimate struggle for homosexuals.

My point that I was making is that some homosexuals blow the problem out of proportion. Such as, they equate their struggle with that in which blacks had a few decades ago. They attack Christians and make it seem as if all Christians are out there to get them. They act as if the whole world is against them, that Christians are all getting together just to see how horrible they can make their lives.

My point is that homosexuals are gaining a lot of rights. That the Christians persecuting them and trying to take their rights away are a minority, and are declining in power.

I know what persecution is. I have never equated what I've gone though with what others have. Sure, I don't know exactly what homosexuals have gone through, but I know fully well that not all Christians are out there attacking them and trying to steal away all of their rights.

But I'm done. Label me as a bigot who claims all homosexuals just whine and complain. Misrepresent what I said to try to make it seem as if I support the persecution of homosexuals. Its a waste of time to even try to continue anymore.

 

[Magic Man]

I've been attacked personally simply because of my stance which some simply are unwilling to try to understand.

I think we all understand it very well.

My point that I was making is that some homosexuals blow the problem out of proportion.

I believe this is your stance. The problem is not that we don't understand it. The problem is that it's wrong. The other problem is that apparently, you're unwilling to try to understand anything that opposes this opinion you've come to. Essentially, you're accusing us of the problem you're exhibiting.

 

[MacKinnon]

The trouble is, with this subject it seems you can't articulate your views without contradicting yourself.

You can't say you believe that persecution is wrong and shouldn't happen, whilst at the same time claim that the persecution is being blown out of proportion. It exists. It should not. And until it does not exist, no amount of complaining about it should be considered 'blown out of proportion'.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The trouble is, with this subject it seems you can't articulate your views without contradicting yourself.

You can't say you believe that persecution is wrong and shouldn't happen, whilst at the same time claim that the persecution is being blown out of proportion. It exists. It should not. And until it does not exist, no amount of complaining about it should be considered 'blown out of proportion'.

:clap

Well said.

 

[fallingblood]

The trouble is, with this subject it seems you can't articulate your views without contradicting yourself.

You can't say you believe that persecution is wrong and shouldn't happen, whilst at the same time claim that the persecution is being blown out of proportion. It exists. It should not. And until it does not exist, no amount of complaining about it should be considered 'blown out of proportion'.

There will also be a level of persecution. That will never be eradicated. Today, in America, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Blacks, Whites, straight, gay, whatever face persecution to a point. That is simply life. It may not be right, but that is something that can never be eradicated. At some point, this has to be accepted. Homosexuals may get all of the rights that heterosexuals do, but they will continue to be persecuted to a point. That is the nature of having the freedom to be different (not to say it is a choice to be different).

 

[fallingblood]

I think we all understand it very well.

I really don't think so. When what I say can be taken so out of context, to the point that it can be claimed that I'm being a bigot, who is some how supporting or condoning persecution, or that I think all homosexuals are just whining about being persecuted, there is a misunderstanding.

I believe this is your stance. The problem is not that we don't understand it. The problem is that it's wrong. The other problem is that apparently, you're unwilling to try to understand anything that opposes this opinion you've come to. Essentially, you're accusing us of the problem you're exhibiting.

So no homosexuals are blowing the problem out of proportion?

 

[MacKinnon]

There will also be a level of persecution. That will never be eradicated. Today, in America, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Blacks, Whites, straight, gay, whatever face persecution to a point. That is simply life. It may not be right, but that is something that can never be eradicated. At some point, this has to be accepted. Homosexuals may get all of the rights that heterosexuals do, but they will continue to be persecuted to a point. That is the nature of having the freedom to be different (not to say it is a choice to be different).

And this is where I really must disagree. As humans we are more than capable of redefining, and refining our outlooks on life and other people. To suggest that we must accept the presence of persecution, rather than work to combat it is rather defeatist.

 

[linwood]

Today, in America, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Blacks, Whites, straight, gay, whatever face persecution to a point.

I think perhaps some of our problem is that we have differing definitions of "persecution".

For the sake of argument I`m heading to dictionary.com.

Persecute:
1.
to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, esp. because of religion, race, or beliefs; harass persistently.
2.
to annoy or trouble persistently.

You wrote your list above and I thought to myself "I don`t think many of those groups are actually persecuted.

I myself am an atheist living on Jesus street USA and I don`t feel particularly persecuted on a regular basis so I`m asking.

What do you consider persecution?

If you are going to tell me that white straight Christians are being persecuted in the USA I`m going to lobby for my fair share of that type of persecution.

Please tell me how white straight Christians are being persecuted here.

Give me an example.

 

[Magic Man]

I really don't think so. When what I say can be taken so out of context, to the point that it can be claimed that I'm being a bigot, who is some how supporting or condoning persecution, or that I think all homosexuals are just whining about being persecuted, there is a misunderstanding.

I'm sure you don't think so. However, what you say is that homosexuals are blowing their persecution out of proportion. That is understood, and it is wrong.

So no homosexuals are blowing the problem out of proportion?

They lack equal rights. Until that is fixed, they need to make it heard. You may see that as blowing it out of proportion, but that is an ignorant view of the situation.