Do you as a Muslim believe in women's equality?

[MysticSang'ha]

If anyone understood what the heck you were saying, they might answer it. Try plain English, somewhere down at my level.... you know, near the floor

I did explain in plain English. If you don't understand something specifically, ask so I can clarify.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Women who work aren't mothers--because, of course, the only thing better than a mother is a man sitting at home all day to desperately argue that women should stay at home to make room for men in the job market.

 

[Draka]

So...when a woman dares to take a job from a man, during regular school hours, making it possible to drop of her kids, go to work, then get off work in time to pick up her kids and take them home...she is not a mother at all. How dare she work outside the home to contribute to the family income to make sure her children have new shoes or clothing or food in the house. How dare she not be home the entire time her kids are at school, fluffing their pillows, cleaning their room, and doing housework until the moment they are back with her? Nope, not a REAL mother at all.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I did explain in plain English. If you don't understand something specifically, ask so I can clarify.

Try explaining it at my level, not yours. I know you explained it, but it meant nothing to me, nor, it seems, anyone else.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Women who work aren't mothers--because, of course, the only thing better than a mother is a man sitting at home all day to desperately argue that women should stay at home to make room for men in the job market.

I suppose that means something to you does it?

 

[Robert.Evans]

So...when a woman dares to take a job from a man, during regular school hours, making it possible to drop of her kids, go to work, then get off work in time to pick up her kids and take them home...she is not a mother at all. How dare she work outside the home to contribute to the family income to make sure her children have new shoes or clothing or food in the house. How dare she not be home the entire time her kids are at school, fluffing their pillows, cleaning their room, and doing housework until the moment they are back with her? Nope, not a REAL mother at all.

Ever thought they might help others? Ever thought they might teach from home, with perhaps one mother teaching per child, with help from specific channels on the internet, with the best teachers in the land, instead of just the ones that suit our own pocket? Think any further than your own mysandristic thoughts can you

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Try explaining it at my level, not yours. I know you explained it, but it meant nothing to me, nor, it seems, anyone else.

Again, what specifically do you want clarified?

Saying the whole thing makes no sense shows me you aren't even trying to understand. So pick a statement or question out of my post and ask for the kind of clarification you need.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Again, what specifically do you want clarified?

Saying the whole thing makes no sense shows me you aren't even trying to understand. So pick a statement or question out of my post and ask for the kind of clarification you need.

I replied to your post. Your post said:

I'd like somebody to answer my previous question regarding Islam basing gender equality upon a construct of hetero normative procreation marital models.

Is Islam as a religion a proponent of this particular sexual economy? That woman provides gestation while man provides shelter, food, and protection? And in so doing, does this assume equal contribution to civilization as a whole from both genders?

If so, how does this address gender equality for infertility, post-menopausal women, queer men and women, and trans men and women?

Now you tell me what that means.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I replied to your post. Your post said:



Now you tell me what that means.

I spoke in plain English. You do not speak for all patriarchy, so if there is something specific - one question - you would like me to clarify, please specify.

If not, you are not even trying and your responses to me are borderline trolling. I care not to engage if you don't wish to understand and only want me to jump through hoops for you.

 

[Draka]

Ever thought they might help others? Ever thought they might teach from home, with perhaps one mother teaching per child, with help from specific channels on the internet, with the best teachers in the land, instead of just the ones that suit our own pocket? Think any further than your own mysandristic thoughts can you

I absolutely love that a misogynist calls me a misandrist. Especially when he obviously has no clue that I speak out about men's rights as well.

Ever thought that perhaps their own family may need her working more? Ever thought that, perhaps, just perhaps, that the other spouse in the household simply can't bring in quite enough to make ends meet? Perhaps they are laid off, perhaps they simply don't have the best education or experience to get a better paying job, perhaps the family has extra expenditures such as medical needs that need paying for?

Your judgments and statements are cruel, without knowledge, blind and show you don't think any further than your own sexist ideas.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I spoke in plain English. You do not speak for all patriarchy, so if there is something specific - one question - you would like me to clarify, please specify.

If not, you are not even trying and your responses to me are borderline trolling. I care not to engage if you don't wish to understand and only want me to jump through hoops for you.

''trolling''?!? I hope that is a joke. I have put in plain English that do not understand what the heck your talking about. I will put it another way. I am thick. Please talk to me like i am a five year old. Is that ok? How many times to I have to write to you to try and get your question answered, and have to say, I don't understand? I cannot for the life of me understand why you can't just reword it.
If your not going to do that, please don't respond.

As for jumping through hoops, it is me trying to help you.

And I have no idea what trolling means, for all the explanations I have read.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I absolutely love that a misogynist calls me a misandrist. Especially when he obviously has no clue that I speak out about men's rights as well.

Ever thought that perhaps their own family may need her working more? Ever thought that, perhaps, just perhaps, that the other spouse in the household simply can't bring in quite enough to make ends meet? Perhaps they are laid off, perhaps they simply don't have the best education or experience to get a better paying job, perhaps the family has extra expenditures such as medical needs that need paying for?

Your judgments and statements are cruel, without knowledge, blind and show you don't think any further than your own sexist ideas.

Ever thought that we lie in a bed that we have made? So why come out with all the explanations, which in turn come from the change in society because of feminism in the first place. It is a bed feminism has made.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I spoke in plain English. You do not speak for all patriarchy, so if there is something specific - one question - you would like me to clarify, please specify.

If not, you are not even trying and your responses to me are borderline trolling. I care not to engage if you don't wish to understand and only want me to jump through hoops for you.

So wiki says this:
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2]extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into anemotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]

So you are saying I am winding you up by asking you a question. I really can't believe that for a second. Please don't bother responding lest you want to accuse me again of trying to start a discussion on a discussion forum.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I'd like somebody to answer my previous question regarding Islam basing gender equality upon a construct of hetero normative procreation marital models.

Is Islam as a religion a proponent of this particular sexual economy? That woman provides gestation while man provides shelter, food, and protection? And in so doing, does this assume equal contribution to civilization as a whole from both genders?

If so, how does this address gender equality for infertility, post-menopausal women, queer men and women, and trans men and women?

Anyone else wish to respond?

 

[Draka]

Ever thought that we lie in a bed that we have made? So why come out with all the explanations, which in turn come from the change in society because of feminism in the first place. It is a bed feminism has made.

So, wait, now you are claiming that if a factory does lay-offs it is the fault of feminism? That if a man didn't pursue college or maybe didn't even get his high school diploma it is the fault of feminism? Everything possibly bad that can happen to a man is women's fault? And you still maintain, with an outlook like that, that you aren't a misogynist? Do you read the things you say? It truly is all about the evil women, the spawn of "Eve" for you isn't it? Men are innocent in everything, it is all a woman's fault. Women taking jobs, women pursuing careers, women standing up for themselves and not putting up with abuse or cheating or just being basically miserable in a relationship. How dare women, right? By sheer virtue of our vaginas we should just shut our mouths, take whatever we are given, stay out of a "man's world" and stop mucking things up by daring to think we are capable human beings. Capable of helping men, of working alongside them, of taking burden off of them by helping to contribute to and support families. By saying that men and women are equals, that men don't have to have all the pressure on them. That men can fulfill their dreams as well even if their dreams are of caring for children, being a daycare provider, or any number of things you seem to think are "women's duties". You, who seem to hate on women so, also don't seem to have much faith in men. You outright say that a man can't raise a child as well as a woman. That is ludicrous. Men are just as capable of parents as women can be. Being a parent, raising children, has nothing, NOTHING, to do with what your reproductive equipment may be and absolutely everything to do with one's heart. I, the one you accuse of being a misandrist, happen to think men make wonderful parents if given the chance. I, unlike you, a man, happen to think men have caring hearts and are just as equal parents as women.

We, all of us, men and women, are not and should not, be defined by what happens to be between our legs, but by our hearts and minds.

 

[Parsimony]

So what? Is the child not a child for part of the day?

You are absolutely right. Someone should always be there for the child. That someone could just as easily be the father or a grandparent or an older sibling or whoever else is willing to look after them until the mother returns home.

I know that a working mother can be an effective mother because I've seen it first hand. I've lived with it. The majority of the time she was at work I was at school so we spent most of our time at home together anyway. I can think of no harmful effects from the setup we had but I can think of benefits (the extra money definitely helped us at times).

 

[Draka]

You know, sometimes it is just nice to be out of the house without your children. As an adult. To have adult conversations. To do things on your own without having to constantly say "no, put that down", "no we can't go to McDonald's", "stop teasing your sister", "quit kicking the back of my seat", "no, you don't need candy" and so on. Even given that, I suppose @Robert.Evans , you think it extremely selfish for a woman to think like that and to even go out on her own to do grocery shopping while leaving children home with their father or another family member and to do such is putting them into that "not a mother" category. I mean, to not be constantly attached by the hip to her children...a mother should be ashamed of herself right? Even though the children have other family to care for them. To love them, guide them, provide for them, teach them. It is obviously a failure on the mother's part if anyone other than her do this, as she should be doing it 24/7. Right?

 

[dawny0826]

Nothing is practical at first. It takes time. I speak now of the UK as I don't know about the US, but we might add was it practical that women have the vote and come out into the male workplace? No. But it happened. It takes time. What you mean is, you don't want it to happen.

I recall seeing a black woman somewhere in Africa who had her child tied to her that went with her wherever she went. The woman she spoke to was a scientist[ess] who also had a baby, but not with her. You should have seen the look on the African woman's face that she was not with her. Pure disbelief. The response to that from the western woman was, You're making me feel guilty now. Says a lot I think. Even monkeys look after their offspring don't they?

I've no problem with that type of family construct for those who are happy with it. I'm content with my life choices ans familial construct as is. I take no issue with others partaking in such a lifestyle and am willing to acknowledge the benefits that such a lifestyle may yield for such people and their children.

I enjoy working outside of the home and I have to work to support my family. I have a strong network of family and we're there for each other, but, we're also independent people as well. My husband gets home from work within 15 minutes from my youngest child getting off the bus. My oldest child is home for less than two hours before her parents and together, we address dinner, homework, family time, etc

When you love your family and you work - you balance. It works. It's not always easy, but, it works out.

Yes, I believe it was absolutely practical for women to get the vote. Women are contributing members to society. You've stated yourself that everything that women do impacts society.

Women are more than vessels to screw, give birth and keep a house and care for family. We have minds and are capable of making positive impacts in this world. Some of us are perfectly content with getting married, giving birth and caring for family. That's perfectly fine. I have no problem with this.

My concern is when a woman is forced to do this and doesn't want to.

As individuals deserving of dignity, I believe women should have right to opportunity, just as men.

I'm grateful that I live in a free society.

 

[dawny0826]

If you an individual and you see yourself as that, as you do, then you are not part of a group are you? If you were, you would be looking after those closest to you, children and women, your closest group.

Now, may be you can tell me, seeing as the conversation has calmed down a bit: there is a group in america (not the Amish) who live lives free from the world, dress old style, but still embrace certain parts of it, like farming practices. They work as a group there, looking after one another. Western women might see it as control, but they are not. They are watching each other to make sure they don't fall. They keep the genders separate. As they are part of a small community, they all eat together, men on one table women on the other. They have their roles. Is it not as exiting? Perhaps. But that is not the point, is it?

I'm part of various groups. There's no reason as to why I should forsake nurturing my individuality as part of various groups. In fact, I have a strong hunch that mental health professionals would advise against doing so. It's not really healthy to be co-dependent to the extent that you lose your sense of individuality.

I don't have a problem with what you've described above as long as all involved are happy. Remember that my issue is when there's abuse and oppression.

If this is what people know and it's working for them, who am I to judge them?

 

[SomeRandom]

If a man says that they can't work or study because of feminism, then quite frankly, he is what we call over here "**** weak." And trust me, that's the polite terminology.