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Do you believe the Bible is God's word?
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
Of course not. There was no official Trinity till the 4th century, long after the NT was written, and that was confined to Christians. (And the Trinity doctrine is incoherent, a datum masked by the title "a mystery in the strict sense" >Why So Much Trinity Bashing?<).
By my standards the God of the Tanakh is hardly a guide to morals. Much as Dawkins said, that God ─
─ liked human sacrifice, Jesus being only a late example
─ approved invasive wars and the seizing of the lands of others
─ approved the massacre of surrendered populations, keeping only the virgins aside for distribution among the troops
─ was notoriously intolerant of other religions ("I am a jealous god")
─ approved of slavery (and famously left instructions on the proper way to sell your daughter)
─ offered nothing to improve the status of women
and from the Christian perspective even sacrificed [his] own son to [him]self for no reason that anyone's been able to explain to me, since had [he] wanted any particular state of affairs to come about, all [he] needed to do was snap those omnipotent fingers.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What personal failure? I see no personal failure.
Why are you so obsessed with what you consider the personal failure of @Sgt. Pepper?
Failure? She escaped Christianity, which was a huge success on her part. So did I, and I consider it among my chief intellectual and moral accomplishments.
You equate your religion with a Shakespearean play, but I see primitive mythology and magical thinking.
And she didn't do the equivalent of dropping out of school. She did the equivalent of dropping out of Sunday school, which is indoctrination, not education. Nobody is filling her head anymore with self-serving messages intended to make her psychologically dependent on the church and the religion to save her from the wrath of its angry and judgmental god. That's for those who choose that religion (or had it chosen for them from the crib and are content with it) to worry about.
He's obviously offended that she's happy that she is no longer a Christian, and his reflex was to try to hurt her with hurtful language.
Atheist firebrand Pat Condell made the following comment about that kind of reaction to those who reject their god and religion:
"I'd like to thank all the angry born-again Christians who have been writing to tell me how much they're looking forward to my eternal torment in the flames of Hell. And yet, if I call you crazy, apparently I'm the one who's being offensive. It's a funny old world, isn't it? To be fair, I do actually sympathize to some extent. I mean it must be quite galling for religious people to see atheists like me going about their business without a shred of guilt or self-loathing, and not in the least inclined to pray or to do penance of any kind, and not in the slightest bit worried about any form of eternal punishment. I have to admit if I was religious, I'd probably think to myself: "How come I've got all this weight on my shoulders while these bums are getting a free ride?"
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Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
I'd like to say that his hateful and malicious reaction only strengthens my resolve to never be a Christian again. It also emphasizes to me the urgency of supporting the Christians I know who are either on the verge of renouncing their faith or considering it. I have given emotional support, personal insight, and advice to other former Christians who made the same decision I did to renounce my Christian faith and abandon Christianity. It is truly an emotionally fulfilling experience to help other former Christians free themselves from what I consider the dangerous entrapment of Christianity. My heart's desire is for them to experience the same emotional freedom from their Christian indoctrination (brainwashing, emotional manipulation, psychological bondage, and spiritual gaslighting) that I did after spending the majority of my life trapped in Christianity. Speaking from experience, it is liberating once a person frees themselves from the constraints of such an oppressive religion, which I believe Christianity is. I also believe that it can be devastatingly detrimental to a person's mental health and emotional well-being. It was for mine, and it was for many other former Christians I know. Other than saving myself from being abused when I was a teenager, I cannot think of anything more empowering than finally understanding that I don't have to believe in the biblical God or follow Christianity or any other deity or religion in order to feel emotionally whole or make moral decisions in my life. It has been incredibly liberating.
In my opinion, Christianity, overall, is a religion based solely on fearmongering, emotional manipulation (shame and guilt-tripping), and the hypocritical judgments from self-righteous people who clearly believe that they are morally superior to others because they are Christians. I believe that this has been demonstrated by the vicious posts directed at me to which you and @It Aint Necessarily So have reacted to and refuted. I am very grateful to you both.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Well said, in my opinion. Thank you for speaking up in my defense. I greatly appreciate it.
It's the same kind of verbal abuse I've learned to expect from the vast majority of Christians I've met in person or, sadly, encountered online. And, upon reflection, I think that the vicious and disparaging insults against me should remain posted so that others can see the true colors behind them. In my opinion, they are a stark reminder that I made the right decision to reject Christianity. They are also a stark reminder that there are very few Christians I know or have met online who truly live out the Christian ideals they profess. In fact, if not for them, I would deeply despise Christians, and rightfully so.
Truer words have never been spoken, in my opinion.
Mine as well. It reaffirms that my choice to leave that religion was a good one.
He does a service to society along with all of the other off-putting things his fellow adherents do promoting hatreds and irrationalities. Modern telecommunications were the beginning of the end for this religion's hegemony in the West. From televangelists and their scandals and hypocrisies since the seventies through the Catholic Church's criminal pedophile cover-up operation to the rise of popular atheist writers like Hitchins, Dawkins, and Harris to the depiction in the entertainment media of the clergy and the church as effete and out of touch with modernity to the rise of Christian theocracy in the States and its hatreds and bigotries - especially misogyny and homophobia) - and to the rise of the Internet which gives rise to displays like this one and the anti-intellectualism of the creationist apologists, it's all shows the church increasingly out of touch with modern values and representing a net harm to society.
The god of Abraham is well described by that Dawkins quote. Here it is again for reference:
"The god of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Richard Dawkins
You might have noticed that skeptics don't say such things about the gods of the polytheists, just the god of Abraham. If that deity as depicted in the OT come off as described, people like Dawkins would have no reason to make such a comment. I'm one of them. I find that deity to be monstrous and unworthy of respect much less worship. If that were just mean-spirited bigotry, I'd say it about Krishna as well. Why not if that were all it was?
But I don't and neither does Dawkins, because neither of us have any complaint about such gods. It's just that one that allegedly lives outside of nature, repeatedly demeans and punishes man for allegedly violating the often irrational and bigoted (by humanist standards) commandments it issues by fiat about who you can love and who you must hate.
That god is a huge turn-off for those who haven't ignored its OT atrocities and are willing to judge it for them. Look at how its followers are behaving in the States - limiting reproductive freedoms in violation of church-state separation, banning books, demeaning LGBTQ+, and having its adherents vote for candidates as monstrous as its god. Why else would they find such a candidate acceptable - one roundly rejected by humanists?
I find him quite relevant.
If you'd care to discuss why Dawkins chose those words to describe this deity, it shouldn't be difficult to serve as his proxy. What part didn't you like? Pestilential? It put plagues on Pharaoh and the Egyptians. Infanticidal? It killed their firstborn. Filicidal? It sacrificed its own son. Capriciously malevolent? It gratuitously tormented Job. Is that enough?
Or you can just wave it all away using words like biased and ridiculous, but that will accomplish nothing for you except perhaps quell a bit of cognitive dissonance caused by confronting these allegations.
Now THAT's what *I* call ridiculous - citing your scriptures to unbelievers. You book has no authority in her life.
She's escaped the stranglehold of that belief. Somebody told you long ago that there is this god who will eventually let you enter paradise or eternal torture depending on how submissive and obedient one is to the instruction that men have told you that it told them to tell you, and you have believed it. So did she once, and so did I once.
You, she, and I were made a promise that we couldn't verify is even possible and which didn't need to be kept. For as long as we believed it, we were dependent on the religion to avoid perdition, or so we once thought. Both of us tunneled out to freedom. It's a terrible thing to do to people, but your church does it because it benefits from it by keeping adherents dependent on it.
It's more like boasting about getting out of an abusive relationship, the kind where the deity plays the role of the abusive husband or boyfriend with the equivalent of "I only hurt you out of love because you won't obey. Don't make me hurt you."
Being a Christian is easy. Children can do it. People who have learned nothing can do it.
Eschewing faith for critical thought is the virtue, not having it. Faith is an abdication of reason. The difficult thing is transcending faith and unfalsifiable dogma once succumbing to it.
More from Condell:
"And why is faith considered some kind of virtue? Is it because it implies a certain depth of contemplation and insight? I don't think so. Faith, by definition, is unexamined. So in that sense it has to be among the shallowest of experiences."
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
I wish I could give your post more than one winner rating. Well done.
Why don't you try to find some real Christians instead of ranting and raving? You sound like someone who condemns marriage because they divorced an abusive spouse.
And your motto is "all you need is love"??? You come across as exactly the opposite: filled with rage and hatred. Is that what your lack of faith produces?
Your obvious boiling rage shows exactly where you are spiritually. It's very sad!
Here are some choice words from Jesus, whom you clearly detest: "Peace be with you! My own peace I give you. But I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled, or dismayed."
Go ahead and reject that and remain filled with rage and hatred, if that's what you want. It's your choice!
She's got you. Are you a real Christian? You seem like one to me.
Except it's you that is expressing hated to her here. I don't need to ask if that comes from your religion. It's typical of the people it generates if they allow it. The best Christians believers reject all of that bigotry, tribalism, and irrationality, but unfortunately, too many Christians don't.
And why are you still beating up on her while ignoring my words to you?
No matter. I don't need your reply, but you do seem cowardly by making that choice. She's a gentle spirit, and won't answer you in kind, but I will. Why don't you deal with me instead and get off her back?
Obvious? You don't seem to understand human nature very much, and you don't bring much insight to the process. It's YOU that expressing rage here. Please continue.
Still citing your scripture to people who are past that?
Incidentally, those words don't seem to have impacted you any. You're obviously troubled and dismayed by her posting. And mine as well judging by your preference to hide from it rather than address it.
As I said, you provide a valuable service showing the world what this religion has and hasn't done for you compared to what leaving it has done for or reveals about those who chose to walk away from it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That was what I was going to say last night, but I ran out of steam, so thanks for saying it, since someone needed to say it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What you describe is the exact opposite of what Jesus would have wanted. Christianity is a religion that was corrupted by men a very long time ago. Nobody should be blaming God or Jesus for what men did.
Christianity can never be restored to what it could have been if men had not corrupted it, which is 'one reason' why God sent a new Messenger to renew the eternal religion of God. The other reason is because Christianity has long since fulfilled its purpose so it is time to move on and do what God has enjoined us to do in this new age.
“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
So did my dad, who then became an atheist. That was before the 1950s, when 95% of Americans were Christians. My mom also escaped in early adulthood, and much later, when she was 60, she became a Baha'i.
I never had to escape because I was never imprisoned by Christianity, thanks to my parents.
It is very easy and one does not even have to read the Bible. All they have to do is BELIEVE what they are taught by parents or in church. Maybe that is why some Christians are caught off guard when I point out certain verses. It is kind of ironic that a Baha'i who was never a Christian has to point out Bible verses to Christians that show that Jesus is never going to return. Go figure.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
I think that you were very fortunate, my friend.
So many Christians talk the talk, but they do not walk the walk.
Reading your post reminded me of this following quote: "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable” (Brennan Manning).
It also reminds me of this song.
I confess to being surprised that you find it funny (as in my #142 above) the bible God approves and employs
─ human sacrifice, Jesus being only a late example
─ invasive wars and the seizing of the lands of others
─ the massacre of surrendered populations, keeping only the virgins aside for distribution among the troops
─ religious intolerance
─ slavery
─ nothing to improve the status of women
If you want specific references to where in the bible those things are plainly stated, just ask. I say that knowing that very few Christians of the many I personally know, or encounter here, have read the bible at all, let alone thought about what it actually says.
InChrist
Free4ever
He appears to be expressing his thoughts and perspective just like you and everyone else here on the forum, but I really don’t see a hateful or malicious reaction.
I have noticed that you do often make very long, repetitive, detailed posts about your disdain for Christianity, Christians, the Bible and so on. I usually don’t read them anymore because they are so redundant. I can’t be sure, but it seems like you have a purpose in doing so. I also remember previously you saying that your husband is a loving, devout Christian. This tells me that you do realize there is a difference. People fall short and all who claim to be Christians or represent Christianity may only be professed religionists, wolves in sheep’s clothing, or maybe actual believers lacking maturity in their faith or walk with the Lord. But there are truly born again Christians who live for Christ, love others in practical ways, and impact this world positively.
Ultimately, I think it is Jesus Christ alone, Whom we are to look to and Whom we are to trust.
Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. John 8:36
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Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Honestly, I'm relieved that Christianity is declining in the U.S. and in other parts of the world. I'd like to see its negative influence significantly diminish.
InChrist
Free4ever
The decline in biblical Christianity just reveals how close we are to the end of the church age and the return of Jesus Christ.
InChrist
Free4ever
I’ve read the Bible. It’s certainly easy enough to come up with negative connotations when picking passages out of context or not looking at the larger historical/spiritual picture. Websites by skeptics are famous for doing so.
The scriptures do not condone human sacrifice. It was condemned by God. That is one prominent reason the Hebrews were instructed to cleanse the land of Cannan of the tribes there, who even after 400 years of knowledge and warning would not repent of idolatry and human sacrifice, even sacrificing children. They would have lived had they turned from wickedness.
Why did God command the extermination / genocide of the Canaanites, women and children included? | GotQuestions.org
Why did God command the extermination / genocide of the Canaanites, women and children included? Is God genocidal?
www.gotquestions.org
Neither does the Bible condone slavery. Only the contrary, it has historically been committed Christians who through understanding God’s creation of all human beings as equal that stood up against slavery. William Wilberforce is a prime example. There are many others. The OT is basically a historical narrative and it often shows human failings, injustices, etc. While God allowed humanity much freedom to do their own thing, good and evil, it doesn’t mean everything was condoned.
I’d say Jesus and the biblical scriptures have done more to improve and elevate the status of women than anything else.
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