Do you believe the Bible is God's word?

[Sgt. Pepper]

That was what I was going to say last night, but I ran out of steam, so thanks for saying it, since someone needed to say it.

I also consider it one of my most significant intellectual and moral accomplishments. Now I use what I know to help others leave Christianity if they so desire. I consider it an honor to help them free themselves from their Christian indoctrination. My primary focus, however, is providing support for other adults who also suffered childhood abuse at the hands of their Christian parent(s) or another Christian-type authority during their childhood. I'm also an advocate for abused children, and I provide moral and financial support for women (mainly Christian and Muslim) who are victims of domestic abuse.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Honestly, I'm relieved that Christianity is declining in the U.S. and in other parts of the world. I'd like to see its negative influence significantly diminish.

It's very heartening to see so many people on this thread expressing their disdain for this religion so openly. We're calling it out on its claims to be a religion of love, charitable, and a shaper of good people. Too many people still think it's a force for good because they've been told so and haven't seen any dissent.

I really don’t see a hateful or malicious reaction.

I did and so have a few others. His intention was to hurt @Sgt. Pepper for criticizing his religion. How can we know that? By his lack of remorse or contrition. When one unintentionally hurts the feeling of another and discovers that, they are concerned and apologetic, explaining what they meant and that it was misunderstood. That didn't happen here.

The decline in biblical Christianity just reveals how close we are to the end of the church age and the return of Jesus Christ.

It reveals to me that the religion is losing relevance in the West, but I don't expect you to seriously consider that idea anymore than that your fellow Christian intended to hurt somebody. You find your religion and your co-proselytizer blameless. Others don't.

The scriptures do not condone human sacrifice.

The sacrifice of a man on a cross was called the greatest act of love ever.

Neither does the Bible condone slavery.

That's incorrect. I could show you the scriptures that condone slavery, but as I said, you're not interested in seeing the blemishes.

I’d say Jesus and the biblical scriptures have done more to improve and elevate the status of women than anything else.

Yet women will be pouring out in large numbers to vote against the people that let the Christians turn them into incubators for the church and put their lives at risk.

Here's the latest from the Christian theocrats ensconced in government. Look at the love for women that you claim they have: Supreme Court Decides to Let Texas Women Die

 

[InChrist]

It's very heartening to see so many people on this thread expressing their disdain for this religion so openly. We're calling it out on its claims to be a religion of love, charitable, and a shaper of good people. Too many people still think it's a force for good because they've been told so and haven't seen any dissent.

I did and so have a few others. His intention was to hurt @Sgt. Pepper for criticizing his religion. How can we know that? By his lack of remorse or contrition. When one unintentionally hurts the feeling of another and discovers that, they are concerned and apologetic, explaining what they meant and that it was misunderstood. That didn't happen here.

I don’t know what his intent was and I doubt you do either. All I know is that he didn’t use name calling or very much in the way of belittlement compared to so much of what I see on this forum that really are put downs toward others…. usually without any remorse or apology.

It reveals to me that the religion is losing relevance in the West, but I don't expect you to seriously consider that idea anymore than that your fellow Christian intended to hurt somebody. You find your religion and your co-proselytizer blameless. Others don't.

The sacrifice of a man on a cross was called the greatest act of love ever.

That's incorrect. I could show you the scriptures that condone slavery, but as I said, you're not interested in seeing the blemishes.

Personally, I disdain Christianity also, when it’s merely a religious practice. I think religion, any religion, is dangerous.

Jesus voluntarily gave His life on the cross, so that each of us may live freely forever. It was not in the category of human sacrifice because He was God, who chose to give His life to save humanity.

Yet women will be pouring out in large numbers to vote against the people that let the Christians turn them into incubators for the church and put their lives at risk.

Here's the latest from the Christian theocrats ensconced in government. Look at the love for women that you claim they have: Supreme Court Decides to Let Texas Women Die

The issue in Texas just reveals more about the flaws of government overreach than anything concerning biblical Christianity. Obviously, to save a woman’s life takes priority in a such a medical emergency situation. The Bible is about life and the God of the Bible is about saving lives.

 

[Audie]

I've met many other Christians who grew up in a Christian home where they learned early on in life to never question God, the Bible, or any other Christian-related beliefs that they were taught, because it would upset their parents, their extended family, their Christian friends, their pastor, and the rest of the church congregation. I believe that it is then that a person learns how to be a genuine critical thinker by honestly reexamining their beliefs and reading the Bible without wearing the rose-colored glasses that they were forced and coerced to wear during their Christian upbringing. It takes a lot of courage.

I learned at a young age that questioning God was considered a grave sin among other Christians. So, I learned to keep my mouth shut and keep all of my doubts about God and the Bible to myself until I was living on my own and mustered up enough courage to reexamine the Bible, my beliefs about God, and everything else I had been taught as a devout Christian. Therefore, I know from personal experience that renouncing a genuinely held belief in God and Christian indoctrination can be frightening. I believed in God for forty years, so it was frightening to me, but I eventually learned how to think for myself and how to stand on my own two feet. I've also learned that I don't need to believe in God in order to be a good person, make moral decisions, and take care of myself and my family. I see my former belief as nothing more than an emotional crutch that was detrimental to my own mental health.

I'm absolutely convinced that I'm far better off in my life now that I've renounced my belief in God and my Christian faith. It was a very liberating and positive experience that has profoundly changed my life. I wish I had done this years ago. It was very difficult for me to forsake my Christian faith and let go of my belief in God. It was a matter of being completely honest with myself. I found the courage within myself to face my reality and let go of my Christian beliefs. I eventually learned how to care for myself and my family without feeling the need to rely on my faith in God. I realized that my faith in God was nothing more than false hope and an emotional crutch. I understood that if I was ever going to truly heal emotionally and change my life for the better, I needed to let go of this detrimental crutch that was ruining my life. I had to let go of it all. I understand now that Christianity was a prison for me.

There is a scripture that states, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13). Well, I genuinely believed in God and sought him with all my heart for forty years, but I never found him. I did, however, find disappointment, sadness, fear, confusion, and a constant feeling of hopelessness during the years I believed in God and was a devout Christian. I'm elated to say that I'm now free of what I consider to be the entrapment of my Christian faith. So I have no doubt that I am considerably better off in my life now that I have let go of the belief, faith, and false hope I had in God.

Growing up in an atheist home in Hong Kong gives a very different perspective.

 

[blü 2]

I’ve read the Bible. It’s certainly easy enough to come up with negative connotations when picking passages out of context or not looking at the larger historical/spiritual picture. Websites by skeptics are famous for doing so.

So are historians.

The scriptures do not condone human sacrifice. It was condemned by God.

That's simply not correct. Some examples are ─

Genesis 22:9 – God orders a human sacrifice and Abraham takes him seriously (though it’s called off).

Exodus 22:29-30 requires human sacrifice of first-born. Exodus 34:20 allows you to redeem them.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 Massacres and religious intolerance – “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)

Deuteronomy 20:16 But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, 17 but you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded; 18 that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices which they have done in the service of their gods, and so to sin against the LORD your God.

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders massacre and mass rape.

Joshua 1 – God orders the invasion of Canaan so his people can seize the territory.

Joshua 6:17, 6:21 – God orders, and Joshua performs, the massacre of the population of Jericho.

Judges 11 – God makes a deal with Jephthah, military victory in exchange for the human sacrifice of Jephthah’s daughter. This is done, and Jephthah is elevated to Judge (ruler) of Israel.

2 Samuel 21 – God refuses to call off the famine until seven sons of Saul have been killed by impalement to expiate Saul’s bloodguilt.

2 Kings 2:23 – God murders children for being rude to Elisha about his bald head.

Hosea 13:16 – God condones the ripping open of pregnant women as part of massacring one’s enemies.

Jonah 1:7-15 – God demands the sacrifice of Jonah (though it’s converted to whalery).

And of course in the NT, God refuses to forgive sin until Jesus is made a sacrifice to him ─ a procedure I have never understood and which no one can explain to me.

Neither does the Bible condone slavery. Only the contrary, it has historically been committed Christians who through understanding God’s creation of all human beings as equal that stood up against slavery.

You should read your bible before making statements like that.

God’s rules for buying, owning, disciplining, bonking, selling &c slaves are set out in Exodus 20-21, 22:1-3, 23:12, 26-27, 32, Leviticus 19:20-22, 25:39-55, Deuteronomy 5:14, 15:12-18, 21:10-14, 23:15-16, 24:7 ─ including, famously, how to sell your daughter.

William Wilberforce is a prime example. There are many others.

Yes, slavery is wrong, but not according to the bible.

I’d say Jesus and the biblical scriptures have done more to improve and elevate the status of women than anything else.

I'd say Humanism is the common thread. Many Christians have humanist values.

By contrast, in the lead-up to the US Civil War, slave owners were able to quote scripture effortlessly in support of their position.

The slaveowners we're talking about (as distinct from the Muslim slave industry) were very largely Christian English, with some Christian French and Spanish, New World landowners, not least growing cotton and sugar cane.

 

[InChrist]

So are historians.

That's simply not correct. Some examples are ─

Genesis 22:9 – God orders a human sacrifice and Abraham takes him seriously (though it’s called off).

Exodus 22:29-30 requires human sacrifice of first-born. Exodus 34:20 allows you to redeem them.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 Massacres and religious intolerance – “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)

Deuteronomy 20:16 But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, 17 but you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded; 18 that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices which they have done in the service of their gods, and so to sin against the LORD your God.

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders massacre and mass rape.

Joshua 1 – God orders the invasion of Canaan so his people can seize the territory.

Joshua 6:17, 6:21 – God orders, and Joshua performs, the massacre of the population of Jericho.

Judges 11 – God makes a deal with Jephthah, military victory in exchange for the human sacrifice of Jephthah’s daughter. This is done, and Jephthah is elevated to Judge (ruler) of Israel.

2 Samuel 21 – God refuses to call off the famine until seven sons of Saul have been killed by impalement to expiate Saul’s bloodguilt.

2 Kings 2:23 – God murders children for being rude to Elisha about his bald head.

Hosea 13:16 – God condones the ripping open of pregnant women as part of massacring one’s enemies.

Jonah 1:7-15 – God demands the sacrifice of Jonah (though it’s converted to whalery).

And of course in the NT, God refuses to forgive sin until Jesus is made a sacrifice to him ─ a procedure I have never understood and which no one can explain to me.

What is it you don’t understand? The scriptures state plainly that the wages of sin is death. Why should God allow sin and its harmful impact go on endless for eternity? No Just God would or should. Sin can’t simply be forgiven like it’s no big deal. It must be ended. God will either put it to death or forgive and transform the lives of those who repent and trust Christ’s saving work on the cross. Jesus willingly has put sin to death for all who trust His death and resurrection on their behalf. BTW, the account of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son was a symbolic picture of the ultimate sacrifice of God’s Son. Abraham trusted God and KNEW God would provide an alternative sacrifice or bring Isaac to life again.

You should read your bible before making statements like that.

God’s rules for buying, owning, disciplining, bonking, selling &c slaves are set out in Exodus 20-21, 22:1-3, 23:12, 26-27, 32, Leviticus 19:20-22, 25:39-55, Deuteronomy 5:14, 15:12-18, 21:10-14, 23:15-16, 24:7 ─ including, famously, how to sell your daughter.

It seems to me you are just pulling verses out of context just to support your prejudice or preconceived ideas. I don’t have time to respond to your entire list at once. If you want to go through one at a time, fine.

Yes, slavery is wrong, but not according to the bible.


I'd say Humanism is the common thread. Many Christians have humanist values.

By contrast, in the lead-up to the US Civil War, slave owners were able to quote scripture effortlessly in support of their position.

The slaveowners we're talking about (as distinct from the Muslim slave industry) were very largely Christian English, with some Christian French and Spanish, New World landowners, not least growing cotton and sugar cane.

A lot of people quote or misquote scripture for their own self-serving reasons, doesn’t mean they are right or following Christ.

 

[Audie]

What is it you don’t understand? The scriptures state plainly that the wages of sin is death. Why should God allow sin and its harmful impact go on endless for eternity? No Just God would or should. Sin can’t simply be forgiven like it’s no big deal. It must be ended. God will either put it to death or forgive and transform the lives of those who repent and trust Christ’s saving work on the cross. Jesus willingly has put sin to death for all who trust His death and resurrection on their behalf. BTW, the account of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son was a symbolic picture of the ultimate sacrifice of God’s Son. Abraham trusted God and KNEW God would provide an alternative sacrifice or bring Isaac to life again.


It seems to me you are just pulling verses out of context just to support your prejudice or preconceived ideas. I don’t have time to respond to your entire list at once. If you want to go through one at a time, fine.



A lot of people quote or misquote scripture for their own self-serving reasons, doesn’t mean they are right or following Christ.

its you who does not understand.

The 6 day poof and Noah’s flood? Adam and Eve?

How can you possibly not understand that none of that is true?


Every politician uses that same
“out of context” excuse for inconvenient things they’ve said.

it doesnt work for them or you or your bible.

 

[InChrist]

its you who does not understand.

The 6 day poof and Noah’s flood? Adam and Eve?

How can you possibly not understand that none of that is true?


Every politician uses that same
“out of context” excuse for inconvenient things they’ve said.

it doesnt work for them or you or your bible.

I understand that I am finite with limited knowledge and you, as well as every human is, also. I understand that God is infinite with vastly more knowledge than me or you. I understand that God is the Source of life and love and He wants us to exist and enjoy His love forever.

 

[blü 2]

What is it you don’t understand? The scriptures state plainly that the wages of sin is death.

That's nonsense. In the real world, microorganisms and critters have been dying for billions of years, and humans are just one more example.

The idea that the wages of sin is death is only found in Paul, and he appears to have based it on the notion of a Fall of Man in the story of the Garden of Eden. However, no doubt you've read Genesis 2 and 3 carefully, and noticed that it never once mentions sin. Nor does it ever suggest that death will enter the world, but signifies it's already intrinsic to life by having a Tree of Life which is said to confer the same freedom from death that God has. And you'll recall that God states [his] only reasons for expelling A&E from the Garden in Genesis 3:22-23, and they have nothing to do with sin. (Paul's version, about the Fall, was apparently invented around 120 BCE by the Jews of Alexandria practicing the midrash tradition, where you take any quote from the Tanakh and try to imagine a totally different meaning for it.)

So why would God send Jesus on a suicide mission (which it plainly was from the start eg Mark 2:20, the four gospels' "Let this cup pass from me" &c)? Why was it necessary for Jesus to die horribly? What could that achieve that an omnipotent God couldn't achieve with one snap of [his] fingers?

Please talk me through it.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

It's very heartening to see so many people on this thread expressing their disdain for this religion so openly. We're calling it out on its claims to be a religion of love, charitable, and a shaper of good people. Too many people still think it's a force for good because they've been told so and haven't seen any dissent.

I couldn't agree more.

I'd like to mention that I've shared many of my personal posts about renouncing my Christian faith, as well as the stories I've shared about the childhood abuse and trauma I've suffered, in group emails with other adult survivors of childhood abuse. I'm proud to say that what I've written in these posts has had a significant impact on and inspired other childhood abuse survivors to find the courage to confront what happened to them, as well as the courage to renounce their Christian faith and break free from the Christian indoctrination that they were also subjected to. I never push another survivor of abuse to renounce their Christian faith, but I do let them know that it is possible to break free. I share with them about how much my life has greatly improved since I renounced mine. However, I emphasize that the decision to renounce their faith is entirely up to them. It is so uplifting for me to see them break free.

I noticed that there was a complaint regarding these posts, but I can honestly say that my focused efforts to share my stories were not in vain. It is also therapeutic for me to share and discuss my past experiences with Christianity. I know that I'm helping others who have either suffered similar childhood abuse and trauma or have been in a difficult situation in their lives because of their overbearing Christian indoctrination. I feel really good about that.

 

[InChrist]

I

That's nonsense. In the real world, microorganisms and critters have been dying for billions of years, and humans are just one more example.

The idea that the wages of sin is death is only found in Paul, and he appears to have based it on the notion of a Fall of Man in the story of the Garden of Eden. However, no doubt you've read Genesis 2 and 3 carefully, and noticed that it never once mentions sin. Nor does it ever suggest that death will enter the world, but signifies it's already intrinsic to life by having a Tree of Life which is said to confer the same freedom from death that God has. And you'll recall that God states [his] only reasons for expelling A&E from the Garden in Genesis 3:22-23, and they have nothing to do with sin. (Paul's version, about the Fall, was apparently invented around 120 BCE by the Jews of Alexandria practicing the midrash tradition, where you take any quote from the Tanakh and try to imagine a totally different meaning for it.)

So why would God send Jesus on a suicide mission (which it plainly was from the start eg Mark 2:20, the four gospels' "Let this cup pass from me" &c)? Why was it necessary for Jesus to die horribly? What could that achieve that an omnipotent God couldn't achieve with one snap of [his] fingers?

Please talk me through it.

In Genesis 2:16-17 it says…

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

God gave Adam and Eve everything they needed in the garden, as well as His love and daily relational communion…with only one rule. Their distrust and disobedience was sin which broke their relationship and separated them from God. They were also cut off from the tree of life so that their sinful condition would not go on eternally.

Throughout the Tanaka provision is make for sin offerings and the temple animal sacrifices were pointing to the ultimate and final sacrifice of Christ. So it’s not a concept that Paul introduced.

 

[Audie]

I understand that I am finite with limited knowledge and you, as well as every human is, also. I understand that God is infinite with vastly more knowledge than me or you. I understand that God is the Source of life and love and He wants us to exist and enjoy His love forever.

Don’t deceive yourself. It’s unbecoming, and way too easy.

Belief is not understanding. You claim to understand things you
annoy possibly know. And things like the falsehood of “ flood”
though so easy to understand, youve not a clue.

As for the “ context” thing you dodged, for thousands of
years slavery was everywhere. And the Bible endorsed it.

Then it got unfashionable and of a sudden “gods word” was discovered
to be “ out of context”.


So you say but your words are empty as you can’t show how
the plain black and white means anything but just what it says.

They are all man- words anyway, claiming it’s from god.

See your “ for their own purposes”.

Some are taken in and “ believe” as they’re told its
a great virtue to believe.

Others are not so readily gulled.

 

[Audie]

I

In Genesis 2:16-17 it says…

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

God gave Adam and Eve everything they needed in the garden, as well as His love and daily relational communion…with only one rule. Their distrust and disobedience was sin which broke their relationship and separated them from God. They were also cut off from the tree of life so that their sinful condition would not go on eternally.

Throughout the Tanaka provision is make for sin offerings and the temple animal sacrifices were pointing to the ultimate and final sacrifice of Christ. So it’s not a concept that Paul introduced.

Adam and Eve are fiction. They never existed.

 

[InChrist]

Adam and Eve are fiction. They never existed.

Believe or don’t believe what you like. I will believe as I do and have no reason or need to argue with you about it.
Enjoy your day or night; whatever it is there in Hong Kong.

 

[Audie]

Believe or don’t believe what you like. I will believe as I do and have no reason or need to argue with you about it.
Enjoy your day or night; whatever it is there in Hong Kong.

Then stay out of debate forums.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Adam and Eve are fiction. They never existed.

I can't believe how gullible I was to believe in the whole creation myth while I was a Christian. Now I know better, as I explained earlier on in this thread (post #114). In my opinion, it is more reasonable to believe the theory of evolution as a logical explanation for the origin of mankind than to believe that a god created a man from dirt, breathed air into him and made him alive, and created a woman from this man's rib, or to believe that the rest of humanity is descended from this man and woman and that a talking serpent cunningly deceived the woman, who then deceived the man, into disobeying this god's command to them not to eat forbidden fruit from a magical tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In comparison to these biblical stories, believing that human beings evolved from a primate ancestor doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It seems ridiculous to me now that I used to believe the creation myth.

 

[Trailblazer]

The decline in biblical Christianity just reveals how close we are to the end of the church age and the return of Jesus Christ.

The decline in biblical Christianity is what would be expected, since the church age ended in 1844 AD with the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who ushered in the new age.

 

[blü 2]

In Genesis 2:16-17 it says…

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

First, that's a clear statement that Adam and Even had no knowledge of good and evil, hence had no way of knowing that anything eg disobedience was wrong. They were in that state because God had denied them that knowledge. It means that at the time each of them ate the fruit, they were incapable of intending to do wrong, hence incapable of sin.

Nor, as I pointed out, is sin mentioned anywhere in the story.

And remember, it's simply a folktale, not an event in human history.

Throughout the Tanaka provision is make for sin offerings and the temple animal sacrifices were pointing to the ultimate and final sacrifice of Christ. So it’s not a concept that Paul introduced.

Paul introduced it into Christianity. As I said, it appears to originate among the Jews of Alexandria around 120 BCE, practicing midrash.

You haven't explained to me why the sin offering had to be Jesus, or why it had to be a horrible death, or why God couldn't achieve whatever [he] wanted to achieve with one snap of those omnipotent fingers.

Nor have you explained how sin can be inherited, when Ezekiel 18, and not least 18:20, states unambiguously that sin cannot be inherited.

 

[John53]

Why don't you try to find some real Christians instead of ranting and raving? You sound like someone who condemns marriage because they divorced an abusive spouse.

And your motto is "all you need is love"??? You come across as exactly the opposite: filled with rage and hatred. Is that what your lack of faith produces?

Says the person threatening those who don't agree with them. The irony.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Growing up in an atheist home in Hong Kong gives a very different perspective.

I am sure it does, and I envy you. Unfortunately, my indoctrination into evangelical Christianity began at a young age. And while growing up, I was literally surrounded by evangelical, conservative Christians from within my adoptive family and the communities where I lived. I'm including one of my previous posts in which I discussed some of the experiences I had with these Christians while growing up (with an additional link to read). As an adult, I've been surrounded by them at the churches I've attended, as well as where I've lived with my husband and children. I was also a well-trained evangelist, street preacher, and evangelistic team leader for several years, so I had a lot more time to spend with these Christians. I think it's fair for me to say that I'm quite familiar with these Christians, having spent the majority of my life surrounded by them. These are some of the reasons I am so passionate about helping others break free from Christian indoctrination. I truly believe that being a Christian can be detrimental to one's mental health and emotional well-being.

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