Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[muhammad_isa]

Before yearning for a theocracy, it's worth keeping something in mind: in a theocracy, you don't get to choose the religion that's imposed on you.

I agree with you .. I do not agree with dictatorship.
I am glad that I live in the UK, with its mature democracy.
..despite not being in agreement with all its laws.

Nothing is perfect .. except heaven.

 

[Nakosis]

Yes .. the world is becoming less moral.
..and it certainly DOES have something to do with the decline in religious belief.

We can see from the last 40 pages, that I am a single voice here defending
the institution of marriage, and explaining the evils of sex outside of marriage.

Marriage brings stability to a family. Most problems arise when that stability is broken.

What about between two people when there is no family? No family, no desire to start or commitment to start a family.

Most people are not responsible about sex. A lot of chaos comes from this lack of responsibility.
What about between two responsible adults with no outside commitments?

I don't see a problem with that, I'm just not sure how responsible us humans can be.

 

[lukethethird]

all you need to do is look at expressly atheist societies and see how degenerate they are. nominally religious societies are also degenerate but that is not because of religion but despite it.

there is no such thing as an atheist, whatever is your priority in life, who are whatever you think is the most powerful entity on earth, whatever you get up in the morning for is your "god", even if it is not much of a god and you have nothing in particular to live for.

Gods, if real, are worthless idiots, just look at their followers.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Marriage brings stability to a family. Most problems arise when that stability is broken.

..very true..
..and there can be 101 reasons for that.
Modern life can be very stressful.

What about between two responsible adults with no outside commitments?

I don't see a problem with that, I'm just not sure how responsible us humans can be.

..what the eye doesn't see..
I do not judge others .. I know that I am a sinner.

The problem, as far as I can see, is when marriage becomes an "optional extra" in society,
and the idea of immoral sex becomes a matter of consent [usually a woman] in law.
We then see squabbles about rape, and I said "no" .. she said "yes" .. and what have you.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

No .. it isn't.
That's what happens when a woman commits treason against the father of her children.

I'm beginning to see why your wife left you. Do any of your daughters still talk to you? I hope they get away while they can.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The more you expose "islam" for what it is
the more I'm glad I live where the govt knows
what to do about such a " faith" within its borders.

The thing is, this isn't a mainline belief of Islam. This monstrous opinion isn't even echoed by Muslim majority countries, which overwhelmingly have laws in place for spousal rape. This is just an especially egregious individual sexist opinion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The thing is, this isn't a mainline belief of Islam.

You are wrong there.

This monstrous opinion isn't even echoed by Muslim majority countries, which overwhelmingly have laws in place for spousal rape.

..but these countries probably follow a secular agenda .. copying the West.
Many of these countries were colonised by the West in the past.

This is just an especially egregious individual sexist opinion.

Rubbish.
Islamic law is simple in this respect.
It is illegal to commit adultery and fornication.
It is legal to have sexual intercourse with your wife [or husband].

It is NOT legal to cause serious harm to anybody .. spouse or not.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

..but these countries probably follow a secular agenda .. copying the West.
Many of these countries were colonised by the West in the past.

So you're going for an Iranian interpretation of Islamic law, then?

That's the only Muslim-majority country I can think of that was never colonized by a Western power (though it was certainly influenced by them).

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Marriage brings stability to a family.

How? It doesn't seem to be much of an impediment to couples going their separate ways, and when it is, it is often because divorce is too punitive, not because love has been rekindled.

What about between two people when there is no family? No family, no desire to start or commitment to start a family.

Are you defining family as just households with children? Probably not, but that's how it reads. My wife and I are just a loving couple with dogs.

I'm beginning to see why your wife left you.

Did he report that? I don't recall reading it.

We now live in a society where men are often superfluous

Correct. My wife doesn't need me. So I have to make sure to make it worth her while to continue living with me. I need to bring something to the table. It has to be better to see me there every day than not.

They get "kicked out", and nobody cares.

Who should care? My experience is that men who get kicked out generally deserved it. When the women are the cause of the breakup, they tend to leave or be thrown out. If not, the man leaves of his own accord.

Muslims are civilised. We follow what G-d has ordained. We do not agree with being devoured by the female. A good female is one who honours and obeys her husband.

That's not civilized to me, at least not in humanist terms. That's primitive.

I do not agree with a situation where a man and woman lie together and produce children together, and a woman wants to see their husband imprisoned for a sexual crime against her, whilst still lying together in the same bed.

That's also not civilized to me.

That's what happens when a woman commits treason against the father of her children.

Nor that. Treason, is it? You see the man as sovereign in the relationship, his wife as his subject, and acts against his will as treason? Now you're becoming Trump, who also phrases things done to him as attacks on "our great nation."

The values of modern society are self-destructive.

To the patriarchy, but are liberating to everybody else, including wives and women who don't want to be wives.

Yes .. the world is becoming less moral...and it certainly DOES have something to do with the decline in religious belief.

Not in my estimation. Humanism has been replacing Christianity as the dominant ideology in the West for several centuries, and the results have been impressive. It's the organized, politicized religions like that one and yours as well as secular antidemocratic, authoritarian despots and their governments that impede human potential.

You won't learn anything like that [ignoring posters]. You will just wander blindly on with your preconceived values.

Good point. You've opened my eyes. Think of how much you've taught the thread.

satan wants to cause division.

He's got nothing on you. People are giving frubals to posts advocating ignoring you.

We can see from the last 40 pages, that I am a single voice here defending the institution of marriage

No, you're defending authoritarian patriarchy in marriage. You are the enemy of every female trapped in a family like that including the willing ones. Your religion with it vision of women as second-class citizens (and sex slaves if you are typical for a Muslim husband) and Christianity with its vision of women as breed mares for the state are the standards for misogyny. Humanism rejects such values. I want my wife to be all that she can be. Why? Because I love her, and because I live by the Golden rule.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm beginning to see why your wife left you.

Didn't I tell you? I've got 2 wives now.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I'm beginning to see why your wife left you. Do any of your daughters still talk to you? I hope they get away while they can.

I don't fault any woman who leaves her husband in such a manner. In fact, if I knew her, I'd advise her to leave him and seek refuge from him elsewhere. I'd advise any daughters to leave home and avoid their father or even get a restraining order against him. I've helped women in a situation like that before.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Treason, is it? You see the man as sovereign in the relationship, his wife as his subject, and acts against his will as treason?

It is treason.
A woman is joined in Holy matrimony, and vows to honour and obey. in front of G-d.
If she can't do that, then the relationship must be terminated.
..and not "i will imprison my husband because he dared to touch me".

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't fault any woman who leaves her husband in such a manner. In fact, if I knew her, I'd advise her to leave him and seek refuge from him elsewhere..

They do not need your advise .. thanks all the same.
I have never forced sex on any wife.

My wives are/were happy with their sex life, and happy with their children and grandchildren.

 

[Audie]

The thing is, this isn't a mainline belief of Islam. This monstrous opinion isn't even echoed by Muslim majority countries, which overwhelmingly have laws in place for spousal rape. This is just an especially egregious individual sexist opinion.

Even so

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It is treason.
A woman is joined in Holy matrimony, and vows to honour and obey. in front of G-d.
If she can't do that, then the relationship must be terminated.
..and not "i will imprison my husband because he dared to touch me".

Define "dared to touch me".

Be specific.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

We can see from the last 40 pages, that I am a single voice here defending
the institution of marriage, and explaining the evils of sex outside of marriage.

You are defending a religiously-based patriarchal interpretation of marriage that is repugnant, male-chauvinistic, and potentially abusive toward women. And anyone with a moral conscience who respects women, as well as their human and civil rights, should vehemently oppose it and speak out against it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You are defending a religiously-based patriarchal interpretation of marriage that is repugnant, male-chauvinistic, and potentially abusive toward women. And anyone with a moral conscience who respects women, as well as their human and civil rights, should vehemently oppose it and speak out against it.

..but you are an atheist.
You do not judge by that which G-d reveals.

Just because the world is being taken over by satan, doesn't mean that
we all must bow down to him, and ignore truth.

I happen to respect good women .. and good men.
I cannot respect it when people claim that a sin is not a sin.
i.e. adultery and fornication are "OK"

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

..but you are an atheist.
You do not judge by that which G-d reveals.

Just because the world is being taken over by satan, doesn't mean that
we all must bow down to him, and ignore truth.

I happen to respect good women .. and good men.
I cannot respect it when people claim that a sin is not a sin.
i.e. adultery and fornication are "OK"

Yeah, and if G-d is not your G-d. but you are trick by Satan, then you might be in for a surprise.
That is the end game of "I know The Truth and you don't." The certainty in you is the same as in me, we just get a differently result.
As certain that you are, that your faith is correct and you know G-d, as certain I am that I don't know God and thus I don't claim God.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

..but you are an atheist.
You do not judge by that which G-d reveals.

Just because the world is being taken over by satan, doesn't mean that
we all must bow down to him, and ignore truth.

I happen to respect good women .. and good men.
I cannot respect it when people claim that a sin is not a sin.
i.e. adultery and fornication are "OK"

You're mistaken in thinking I'm an atheist. I am not an atheist, but I reject the biblical God and everything in the Bible. I used to be a Christian, but I now practice Wicca and spiritualism. I was a devoted Christian for thirty years (and a genuine believer in God years before my conversion at age 17) before realizing that if I wanted to emotionally heal and ultimately have peace in my life, then I had to let go of my Christian faith and belief in God. For the record, my husband of thirty years is a devout Christian and has been throughout our thirty-one years together. We've always had a relationship based on unconditional love, mutual trust, and respect for each other. He has always treated me as his equal. He has never once been domineering toward me or toward our seven children in all of our years together. We have a relationship with our children that is also based on trust, respect, and unconditional love.

 

[Nakosis]

How? It doesn't seem to be much of an impediment to couples going their separate ways, and when it is, it is often because divorce is too punitive, not because love has been rekindled.

Fine as long as kids aren't involved.

Are you defining family as just households with children? Probably not, but that's how it reads. My wife and I are just a loving couple with dogs.

Yes sorry if that wasn't clear.
I though saying "sex between two people without kids" someone might intentionally take that the wrong way.