Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[Polymath257]

..whereas in the West, adultery is acceptable, I quote from @Polymath257 "sex is just one nice way people can interact with each other."

It isn't acceptable, but it also isn't illegal. Most people condemn those who betray the trust of their partner.

On the other hand, if the partner is OK with sex outside of the marriage, it isn't anyone else's business.

 

[F1fan]

Why do you keep posting this? Have you not understood yet that your definition of mistreatment is meaningless to your audience? Of course you believe a man should be allowed to mistreat his wife just as long as he doesn't leave marks, but you consider this being a good husband worthy of love, honor, and respect. I consider him an unconvicted criminal.

My take of his definition of "mistreatment" is that if the husband leaves no evidence of rape, abuse, assault, etc. that he's off the hook legally, and therefore no mistreatment. It's a very criminal type of thinking, if you can't prove there was a crime then it didn't happen. I see no suggestion of being honorable or moral, just being careful not to leave evidence of crimes against the wife. I have seen nothing from him to work on mental discipline and restraint. The only consideration to stay witin the rules is excessive punishment, and that means using fear, a very primal and coersive motivation. In short his views are crude, which is what we would find in the 8th century. Since then humans have discovered better options.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Not credible. You sympathize with the husband until he commits a violent act that leaves bodily evidence. You have no sympathy for the wife who is a sex slave. You suggest that she keep quiet and "honor" her husband.

That is patently untrue.
A woman should not be kept against her will.
Clearly, in a case of a husband and wife who abuse each other, something has gone wrong.
..making it all about how bad the husband is, is one side of the story.

Yes, we have different moral values. I think a man should love and respect his wife, and that a woman being raped by her husband is being dishonored by him, has no duty to him, and should leave him, take the children, file for divorce, and call the police.

It's your culture .. not mine.

Yes, secular law is the proper recourse for a woman when her husband is abusing her.

..when a woman says "no" to her husband, but he carries on anyway.
..so marriage is a pointless institution, in that case.

The only thing illegal about a sexual act, is when a woman says "no".
..hence a society where the single parent family is becoming the norm.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And here we go again with the victim blaming. She got him so angry when she said she didn't feel like having sex right how, that he just couldn't control himself and had no choice to but rape her! See, it's her fault! These types of attitudes are the ones that perpetuate rape culture. No, it's not someone's fault that they got raped simply because they didn't feel like having sex at the moment.

You are just painting a picture, that the woman is always right.
That is false.
The institution of marriage gives more protection to women than a "marital rape law" ..
..but they do not perceive.
Why are so many women becoming single parents?

Protection that includes being raped? That is no protection at all.

Being forced to have sex is unacceptable. A woman does not have to put up with that sort of husband.
If she is a good woman, she can do MUCH better than that.

 

[F1fan]

..whereas in the West, adultery is acceptable, I quote from @Polymath257 "sex is just one nice way people can interact with each other."

There is plenty of sexual taboos in the USA but having sex outside of marriage is not one of them, even among your fellow far right Christians. Heck your fellow evangelical Christians have among the worst divorce rates.

Didn't you say that you converted to Islam? When did that happen? Who influenced your current interpretation of the Quran?

 

[muhammad_isa]

And what solution do you offer? Just 8th centuy morals where people are executed for having sex.

There you go .. "having sex" is quite acceptable to you.
The institution of marriage has broken down.

It is frowned upon, and can cause families a great deal of sadness. But execution? That is NOT acceptable. Your values are out of whack.

I can understand why you think so. Nobody likes the idea of being killed for committing adultery..
..but that is the whole point. Look what's happened to the institution of marriage with YOUR attitude.

..the same goes for cutting off the hand of a thief.
It is abominable .. but how many hands actually get cut off?
Not many.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Maybe she had a long day and simply doesn't feel like it. Why does it matter?

You know why it matters.
A woman is capable of seducing a man.
A woman who dislikes their husband might do anything to get rid of him.

 

[viole]

There you go .. "having sex" is quite acceptable to you.
The institution of marriage has broken down.


I can understand why you think so. Nobody likes the idea of being killed for committing adultery..
..but that is the whole point. Look what's happened to the institution of marriage with YOUR attitude.

..the same goes for cutting off the hand of a thief.
It is abominable .. but how many hands actually get cut off?
Not many.

Marriage is experiencing a boom where I live. So, it is not a dead institution.
Especially since gays can marry.

ciao

- viole

 

[SkepticThinker]

You are just painting a picture, that the woman is always right.

No. You're painting a picture of men who can't control themselves and blaming it on the women in their lives, instead of laying the blame right where it belongs - in the man's lap.

That is false.
The institution of marriage gives more protection to women that a "marital rape law" ..

Not as you describe it. You actually just told me that it's a woman's fault that a man rapes her because he's "virile" and she had the audacity to say no, so it's her fault if she gets raped by her "virile" husband who can't seem to control himself. That's on him, not her. He should grow up and learn some self-control.

..but they do not perceive.
Why are so many women becoming single parents?

No, they "do not perceive" because what you're describing is not protection.

Women are single parents for a variety of reasons. I don't view single parent households as inherently bad, given that I basically grew up in one.

Being forced to have sex is unacceptable. A woman does not have to put up with that sort of husband.
If she is a good woman, she can do MUCH better than that.

Great, then she should take her kids and leave and find a decent human being to marry, or stay single if she so chooses.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There you go .. "having sex" is quite acceptable to you.
The institution of marriage has broken down.

Yep. As opposed to be being executed for having sex which is quite barbaric.

I can understand why you think so. Nobody likes the idea of being killed for committing adultery..
..but that is the whole point. Look what's happened to the institution of marriage with YOUR attitude.

How about we stop killing people for stupid things? It's not the freaking dark ages anymore.

..the same goes for cutting off the hand of a thief.
It is abominable .. but how many hands actually get cut off?
Not many.

It's barbaric.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You know why it matters.
A woman is capable of seducing a man.
A woman who dislikes their husband might do anything to get rid of him.

We're not talking about a woman seducing a man (whatever that's supposed to mean).
We're talking about a man who wants to have sex with his wife, and she's just not interested at this exact moment in time, for whatever reason.

Please note how you keep trying to twist this into being the woman's fault, thereby absolving the man of his immoral actions because you claim he just can't control himself. What is he, like a two year old? Grow up.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

We're not talking about a woman seducing a man (whatever that's supposed to mean).
We're talking about a man who wants to have sex with his wife, and she's just not interested at this exact moment in time, for whatever reason.

Please note how you keep trying to twist this into being the woman's fault, thereby absolving the man of his immoral actions because you claim he just can't control himself. What is he, like a two year old? Grow up.

I'm still shaking my head over the implication that a man can spank his wife as a parent would spank a naughty child. What the hell? That's sick.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Great, then she should take her kids and leave and find a decent human being to marry, or stay single if she so chooses.

I couldn't agree more,
..but a tug-of-war over kids is not in their interest.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm still shaking my head over the implication that a man can spank his wife as a parent would spank a naughty child. What the hell? That's sick.

Me too. I just ... can't even ...

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

We're not talking about a woman seducing a man (whatever that's supposed to mean).
We're talking about a man who wants to have sex with his wife, and she's just not interested at this exact moment in time, for whatever reason.

Please note how you keep trying to twist this into being the woman's fault, thereby absolving the man of his immoral actions because you claim he just can't control himself. What is he, like a two year old? Grow up.

When it comes to men and women, there has always been a double standard in our society. If a man sleeps around, hardly anybody ever gives it a second thought, but if a woman sleeps around, some people might think of her as a slu* or even label her as one. Another example is that if a teenage boy sleeps around, he's sowing his wild oats, but if a teenage girl sleeps around, she's called a slu*. Rape victims are even blamed for leading on their rapists.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Please note how you keep trying to twist this into being the woman's fault, thereby absolving the man of his immoral actions because you claim he just can't control himself. What is he, like a two year old? Grow up.

..and that is the problem.
It's in a woman's nature, that when she no longer loves and respects her husband,
she will blame him for everything..
..she is hardly likely to blame herself, now is she?

A law that effectively shifts sexual consent to a woman's fancy, undermines the institution of marriage.
Marriage should INDEED be a partnership between man and wife .. but when it breaks down..

 

[ImmortalFlame]

..and that is the problem.
It's in a woman's nature, that when she no longer loves and respects her husband,
she will blame him for everything..
..she is hardly likely to blame herself, now is she?

We're talking about women being abused by their husbands.

Do you think women being abused by their husbands should have legal recourse and/or protection, yes or no?

Note that I am talking EXPLICITLY ABOUT ABUSE. This includes sexual, physical and psychological abuse. We are talking about a husband deliberately and knowingly HARMING HIS WIFE.

Give a straight answer to this incredibly unambiguous question.

A law that effectively shifts sexual consent to a woman's fancy, undermines the institution of marriage.

You know what else undermines the institution of marriage?

Allowing men to rape, beat and abuse their wives with impunity, and treating women like property who should be shamed for outing abusive husbands.

That's not marriage. Not by any stretch of the imagination in any culture, in any society. It's just giving men the power to abuse women - end of discussion.

 

[Polymath257]

You know why it matters.

Actually, no I don't.

A woman is capable of seducing a man.

That is not the scenario I gave. A woman cannot seduce an unwilling man. And why would a woman want to do so if she dislikes the man?

A woman who dislikes their husband might do anything to get rid of him.

And, if she dislikes him, she should divorce him. But this isn't what I am talking about. I am talking about the husband forcing himself on his wife even if she doesn't want to have sex at that time. In my scenario, she did NOT seduce him. He forced her. Stop changing the topic.

 

[Polymath257]

..and that is the problem.
It's in a woman's nature, that when she no longer loves and respects her husband,
she will blame him for everything..
..she is hardly likely to blame herself, now is she?

A law that effectively shifts sexual consent to a woman's fancy, undermines the institution of marriage.
Marriage should INDEED be a partnership between man and wife .. but when it breaks down..

When it breaks down, *both* tend to be in the wrong. But in the cases we have been talking about, it is the *man* who forces himself on an unwilling woman.

Men also have a tendency to blame women for everything, so that goes both ways. In fact, you have shown this tendency in this very thread.

 

[SkepticThinker]

..and that is the problem.
It's in a woman's nature, that when she no longer loves and respects her husband,
she will blame him for everything..
..she is hardly likely to blame herself, now is she?

A law that effectively shifts sexual consent to a woman's fancy, undermines the institution of marriage.
Marriage should INDEED be a partnership between man and wife .. but when it breaks down..

And here you go again, twisting it even more.

If he rapes her, she SHOULD blame him. I'm wondering when you're going to actually blame the responsible party.

Please stop try to tell me what a "woman's nature" is. You haven't the slightest idea. Or about "men's nature" for that matter. I don't need "women's nature" mainsplained to me from the most misogynistic viewpoint imaginable, thanks.