Does believing, thinking or feeling something is true actually make it true?

[mikkel_the_dane]

No it isn't and it certainly isn't just because you say

Well, you have to explain how we know gender?

 

[Ignatius A]

Please explain.

Gender isnt an abstract. It refers to sex. Male/man, female/woman. Gender roles are abstract and have been socially constructed.

 

[Ignatius A]

Well, you have to explain how we know gender?

l already have. Repeating won't help

 

[Alien826]

Russia should t have invaded Ukraine because you said so? We know some nitwits are "triggered" by t shirts with the name of a former president in it and wish not to see it. It's the selective application of this stuff that BS

Sorry, I thought the Ukraine example would be obvious enough to serve as an example.

 

[Spice]

So you think someone with a penis who believes, thinks and feels that they are a woman is actually a woman. Thanks.

If they have ALWAYS been that way, yes. I personally know someone who would argue with their mother at 3 years old that they were a girl. At nearly 60, and still with a penis, is still a woman. Never any doubt or hesitation.

 

[Sand Dancer]

But they've determined they're a woman based on what? How have they decided what they believe think and feel is a woman?

If your brain is female, you're female.

 

[Ignatius A]

Sorry, I thought the Ukraine example would be obvious enough to serve as an example.

That means you have no idea why you posted it. See again things aren't true simply because you believe think of feel they are true. Glad we agree.

 

[Ignatius A]

If they have ALWAYS been that way, yes. I personally know someone who would argue with their mother at 3 years old that they were a girl. At nearly 60, and still with a penis, is still a woman. Never any doubt or hesitation.

So that person is a woman and not a man who thinks they're a woman. Thanks. You also seem to suggest if it hasn't been the case their whole life that they've felt like a different gender then they are what? Playing pretend? For the person you know it's been since age 3. If someone at 18 suddenly feels like a different gender is that not the same as the person you know?

 

[Ignatius A]

If your brain is female, you're female.

So males and females are different.

 

[PureX]

It's amazing how far people will go to not answer a simple question. Do you think someone with a penis who believes, thinks and feels that they are a woman is actually a woman? Either people can't or won't think.

I don’t need to think about it because it has nothing to do with me. I can just let it be. If I refer to them in some way they feel is incorrect, they can correct me. And I’m fine with that. i don’t need to judge what everyone I encounter thinks of themselves. It would be exhausting, and for no benefit.

 

[Spice]

So that person is a woman and not a man who thinks they're a woman. Thanks.

He knows what he is. His birth certificate, his driver's license, the US census has always identified him as male. But in "his" heart and mind "they" are more female than I, who has female on all that official documentation. They were a good, loving, loyal wife to the same husband for 32 years and is still a grieving widow.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yes they define his sex and gender is correlated to sex. The roles historically associated with gender were socially constructed yes. The problem is that fact has been extended to absurd extremes. The argument now is because the roles of gender were socially constructed people can be whatever gender they "feel" like. Its just not so.

I see. So what is your prescription, as the expert you appear to think you are?

See, I live by an old maxim that I used when I had a staff of many dozens of people, when I had to deal with issues -- my maxim is "people's feelings are real." It's not up to me to change them, only to try to understand them and try to work with them. The worst way to respond to somebody who tells you that they're really mad at you is to say "you shouldn't feel that way." You've already lost the fight if you do that.

So, you going to tell those people, "stop feeling like you do, and start feeling like I do?" Think that'll work? Would it work on you, if the situation were reversed?

 

[Ignatius A]

I don’t need to think about, because it has nothing to do with me. Why do you?

I made the unfortunate mistake of asking people what they think. It's funny because lots of people have lots of thoughts about lots of things that have nothing to do with them but they have no problems sharing those thoughts. It's the selectivity that's most hilarious

 

[Ignatius A]

I see. So what is your prescription, as the expert you appear to think you are?

See, I live by an old maxim that I used when I had a staff of many dozens of people, when I had to deal with issues -- my maxim is "people's feelings are real." It's not up to me to change them, only to try to understand them and try to work with them. The worst way to respond to somebody who tells you that they're really mad at you is to say "you shouldn't feel that way." You've already lost the fight if you do that.

So, you going to tell those people, "stop feeling like you do, and start feeling like I do?" Think that'll work? Would it work on you, if the situation were reversed?

What's real isnt the same as what's true.

I never mentioned telling people what they should of shouldnt feel. I can't converse with people like you that only respond to the voices in their heads.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What's real isnt the same as what's true.

I never mentioned telling people what they should of shouldnt feel. I can't converse with people like you that only respond to the voices in their heads.

WHAT?!? You've been saying in nearly every post in this thread that people with gender dysphoria should feel like that, because of what's between their legs -- not between their ears!

 

[McBell]

Is someone with a penis who believes, thinks and feels that they are woman, actually a woman?

Yes.
But then my definition of women does not include the word vagina.
Nor do I conflate the word women with the word female.

My definition of the word man does not include the word penis.
Nor do I conflate the word man with the word male.

The common response was, it's not a yes or no question. Is that true?

For those who understand that your definition of woman is actually the definition of female, no, it is not a simple yes no question.

If a person said they believe, think and feel that they are a frog mean they are actually a frog?

WTF does this have to do with gender identity?
See, this kind of completely irrelevant nonsense from you is why you have a hard time get anyone to respond.
they do not want to deal with it.

Could we not say to that person you are an amphibian?

WTF does this have to do with gender identity?
See, this kind of completely irrelevant nonsense from you is why you have a hard time get anyone to respond.
they do not want to deal with it.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Not sure why it's so hard for people to answer this simple question.

Because it's not a simple question.

If you think, believe, and feel you're a Christian, does that make it true?

 

[Sand Dancer]

So males and females are different.

Well, yes.

 

[InChrist]

It's called a BRAIN. It is "WHO" (not WHAT) you are. It's also handy, from time to time, for thinking with.

There are other kinds of body dysphoria, you know. Anorexia causes people to see themselves as too fat, when in fact there isn't an ounce of fat on their bodies. They can even stand in the shower at the gym with other folks of normal body shape, and still see themselves as too fat compared to others.

So I'll ask you, how is it possible for someone to see themselves as too fat, when they are not fat at all -- in fact they're usually too thin?

I’m just wondering about what you just said, “they are not fat at all…in fact they’re usually too thin”. So whose understanding is true or reality? You said it’s a fact that the anorexic person is usually thin, but the person with anorexia believes they are fat. So what is actually real?

My perspective is that, as you stated, the person is actually, in reality, physically thin. Their mental/emotional state though is such that they are confused and or deluded about reality.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I’m just wondering about what you just said, “they are not fat at all…in fact they’re usually too thin”. So whose understanding is true or reality? You said it’s a fact that the anorexic person is usually thin, but the person with anorexia believes they are fat. So what is actually real?

My perspective is that, as you stated, the person is actually, in reality, physically thin. Their mental/emotional state though is such that they are confused and or deluded about reality.

Yes, all that is true -- but at the end of the day, "people's feelings are real." Not "real" in the "fact in evidence" way, but real to them. A person may feel frightened, and you may observe that there doesn't appear to be anything for them to be frightened about, but does your observation take away their fear? Of course not! They aren't inside your head.

I am trying to get people to understand something that I would have thought is really quite simple -- but apparently I'm wrong about the simplicity. Our experiences (that is, our conscious experiences) all take place in the 3+ lbs of grey matter between our ears. That is "where we exist," that is where our sense of our "self" exists -- and nowhere else. My sense of my own male gender is not in my penis or testicles. I'm aware of those, but they don't make me the conscious person that I am.

Thus, the therapist dealing with any issue, anorexia or gender dysphoria or anosognosia or even sexual orientation itself has to cope with the problem that our sense of our self is generally pretty fixed and unmalleable. That's why people with such issues are in therapy for so long -- often for their whole lives.

Now, there are some things that are not actually harmful. So the APA has determined that since homosexual orientation is extremely resistant to change, perhaps the best thing to do is just accept that since two men or women loving one another isn't actually doing anybody any harm, why bother to try to change them? Because it is well known that the effort to change them can be very harmful to those individuals indeed, and there's no need to do that harm.

For the anorexic, the therapist has a more difficult problem -- to simply accept the anorexic's reality and treat it with a diet is quite likely to kill the person. That would be, I hope, a no-go for all of us. And so the therapist has to try, knowing how hard it will be, to alter the person's perception of themself. And it all too often fails. I don't if you're old enough to remember the folk-rock couple "The Carpenters," but Karen Carpenter was one such -- and did in fact die, in part because of her anorexia that was so resistant to change.