• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Elon Musk personally thwarted a Ukrainian attack and saved the Russian Navy

anna.

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
ImmortalFlame

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
lukethethird said:
Like Iraq and Grenada, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Libya, etc., etc., etc.
Click to expand...
Yes, all wars are the same. That's how wars work. That's why I TOTALLY oppose every war America has been involved in or started. Like, world war 2. Or the war of independence.

Or maybe, just maybe, some American interventionist wars are justified and others aren't? Or, in this case, simply providing aid to a military ally.

I know this position may be mind-blowing to you, but mull it over for a few days and you might wrap your head around it.
 
Last edited:
lukethethird

lukethethird

unknown member
ImmortalFlame said:
Geopolitics. If it is in the USA's geopolitical interest to intervene, it generally does. In the case of Ukraine, Ukraine has a bilateral trade deal with the USA and is seeking closer trade relations with the west rather than joining the eastern trade bloc. Also, Ukraine is a potential NATO ally, as it has been seeking to join NATO (mostly unsuccessfully) for years. It is also beneficial to prevent Russian expansionism, as that both reduces the number of potential trading allies favourable to America and also puts other US allies in Europe at a direct threat of invasion themselves.

It also happens to be the right thing to do, in this case, as keeping Ukraine free of Russian control is also overwhelmingly what is supported by the people of Ukraine, and Russia is a neo-fascist regime run by a warmongering totalitarian dictator, and allowing warmongering totalitarian dictators to invade their neighbours unhindered generally has pretty bad consequences. So, there's that.
Click to expand...
Ukraine has historically been a larger trading partner with Russia than with the US.

United States (USA) and Ukraine (UKR) Trade | OEC

Ukraine (UKR) and Russia (RUS) Trade | OEC


UKRAINE-UNITED STATESIn 2021, Ukraine exported $1.66B to United States. The main products that Ukraine exported to United States were Pig Iron ($835M), Iron Pipes ($125M), and Seed Oils ($65.4M). During the last 26 years the exports of Ukraine to United States have increased at an annualized rate of 5.46%, from $417M in 1995 to $1.66B in 2021.


RUSSIA-UKRAINEIn 2021, Russia exported $8.13B to Ukraine. The main products that Russia exported to Ukraine were Coal Briquettes ($1.22B), Refined Petroleum ($1.2B), and Petroleum Gas ($386M). During the last 25 years the exports of Russia to Ukraine have increased at an annualized rate of 0.24%, from $7.65B in 1996 to $8.13B in 2021.
 
ImmortalFlame

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
RestlessSoul

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
ImmortalFlame said:
Geopolitics. If it is in the USA's geopolitical interest to intervene, it generally does. In the case of Ukraine, Ukraine has a bilateral trade deal with the USA and is seeking closer trade relations with the west rather than joining the eastern trade bloc. Also, Ukraine is a potential NATO ally, as it has been seeking to join NATO (mostly unsuccessfully) for years. It is also beneficial to prevent Russian expansionism, as that both reduces the number of potential trading allies favourable to America and also puts other US allies in Europe at a direct threat of invasion themselves.

It also happens to be the right thing to do, in this case, as keeping Ukraine free of Russian control is also overwhelmingly what is supported by the people of Ukraine, and Russia is a neo-fascist regime run by a warmongering totalitarian dictator, and allowing warmongering totalitarian dictators to invade their neighbours unhindered generally has pretty bad consequences. So, there's that.
Click to expand...



Well we both agree that US weapons and resources are pouring into a war zone to promote US economic and political interests. So thank you for your honest and considered reply. As for it being the right thing to do, I’m less than certain; in any event, at some point a settlement will have to be negotiated, and the killing will have to stop. Picking sides is the easy part; picking up the pieces is when the difficulties start, and somewhat worryingly NATOs track record there, in Iraq, Syria, and Libya does not inspire confidence.
 
ImmortalFlame

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
RestlessSoul said:
Well we both agree that US weapons and resources are pouring into a war zone to promote US economic and political interests. So thank you for your honest and considered reply. As for it being the right thing to do, I’m less than certain; in any event, at some point a settlement will have to be negotiated, and the killing will have to stop. Picking sides is the easy part; picking up the pieces is when the difficulties start, and somewhat worryingly NATOs track record there, in Iraq, Syria, and Libya does not inspire confidence.
Click to expand...
So, what do you propose? Should the US and it's NATO allies not provide aid to Ukraine?

As for "picking up the pieces", well, frankly, that's not really up to NATO. That's up to Russia. They invaded, and they can stop invading any time. How much harm is done to Ukraine is absolutely 100% determined by them, and they are currently not entertaining peace negotiations.

So, what's the best way out of this that doesn't involve just allowing Ukraine to be taken over by Russia?
 
lukethethird

lukethethird

unknown member
ImmortalFlame said:
It's literally the entire reason for the Maidan protests, the ousting of Yanukovych and the annexation of the Donbas. Ever since Ukraine has been moving politically further from Russia and working towards developing closer ties to the west, Russia either threatens - or actually commits to - military intervention.
Click to expand...
It's easy to rile up crowds with interference and propaganda if you know what you're doing. Stop being so naive about these things.
 
ImmortalFlame

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
lukethethird said:
It's easy to rile up crowds with interference and propaganda if you know what you're doing. Stop being so naive about these things.
Click to expand...
That sure is an interesting, completely evidence-free claim you have there.

Believe it or not, America did not orchestrate Maidan. Believe it or not, countries other than America are perfectly capable of having complex histories. Believe it or not, popular revolutions can and do happen. I've already taken great pains to dispel these claims of yours in multiple threads, and you never seem capable of substantiated responses.

I know this is bizarre. In your world, America is like Thanos or Moriarty. But supervillains don't exist.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
RestlessSoul said:
It wasn't a fallacy, it was a simple question. Let me ask it again, and make it even simpler for you; What do you think is the USA's primary motivation for supplying weapons to a protagonist in a war zone? Maybe you genuinely believe it's to make the world safe for democracy, but excuse me if I'm a little sceptical about that.
Click to expand...
The fallacy was strongly implied. When a Putin apologist gives you a "like" it should make you think.
 
lukethethird

lukethethird

unknown member
ImmortalFlame said:
That sure is an interesting, completely evidence-free claim you have there.

Believe it or not, America did not orchestrate Maidan. Believe it or not, countries other than America are perfectly capable of having complex histories. Believe it or not, popular revolutions can and do happen. I've already taken great pains to dispel these claims of yours in multiple threads, and you never seem capable of substantiated responses.

I know this is bizarre. In your world, America is like Thanos or Moriarty. But supervillains don't exist.
Click to expand...
Just look how riled up you are, case in point.
 
ImmortalFlame

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
lukethethird said:
Just look how riled up you are, case in point.
Click to expand...
Seriously? You're already reaching. Stick to the arguments rather than attempting to psychoanalyse people on an internet forum.

To get back to the facts of the matter: are you suggesting that the people of Ukraine would have had no motivation to oust Yanukovych without America "riling them up with propaganda"? Do you not think it possible that the people of Ukraine WANTED closer economic ties to Europe, rather than Russia, and were rather "upset" when Yanukovych scrapped ongoing EU trade deals to form closer ties with Russia at the same time he was exposed for corruption, committing human rights abuses, and setting police on protesters at the instruction of the Kremlin?

You think those might be reasonable grounds under which people MIGHT want to oust their leader?
 
Last edited:
ImmortalFlame

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
lukethethird said:
Practically everyone but you acknowledges the fact that the US is the single greatest threat to world peace and according to you I'm a Putin shill and an imperialist for pointing out the obvious.
Click to expand...
When you can't stick to facts, you move to abstraction.

Right now, Russia is the one threatening to use nukes. Not America. Stop with your childish histrionics and narrativizing.

Incidentally, I notice you have yet to express a specific opinion about the OP. As an opposer of interventionism, I assume you don't condone Musk's alleged actions?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top