Eternal grovelling or nonexistence?

[sojourner]

It's free will in the same sense that if I put a gun to your head and demand your money, you have a free choice to keep it.

No. Free will is free will. That's the only way love works.

 

[sojourner]

Is a demand made at gunpoint meaningless? Of course it doesn't "make" anything happen, but it sure provides some motivation.

God doesn't hold a gun to our heads. You're grossly mistaken.

 

[sojourner]

The gun to my head is the threat of hell or nonexistence. I thought the metaphor was self explanatory.

Where's the threat? You seem to have this illusion that there's a threat.

 

[sojourner]

IF you believe this mythology it most certainly IS an offer you can’t refuse. Done in the best Vito Corleone tradition. And if YOU did it you would be convicted of extortion and set to JAIL. And properly so.

Your loving and caring god is a common criminal and WOULD be in jail in any civilized society.

This particular mythology doesn't exist. What's your point?

 

[Tristesse]

It doesn't.

I'm exercising my free will, and I don't believe the claims made in the bible, based on having freewill. According to most christians I've talked they would say I'm going to hell.

 

[Storm]

This particular mythology doesn't exist. What's your point?

It does, sad to say. Whether it's a legitimate interpretation is arguable, but there are definitely people who believe it.

 

[sojourner]

Right, which basically gives Christians an imaginary free pass to do anything as long as they repent, but that's a topic for a different discussion. The concept of hell makes it hard for some Christians to stop believing even when they have strong doubts. It's a horrible fear tactic, but it certainly fulfills its purpose and brings in the tithe.

You're way off in left field. We don't get a free pass. We're expected to hold up our end of the covenant. The "concept" of hell only serves to frighten if you don't believe in the concept of grace and unconditional love. The fear tactic is a smokescreen, invented by atheists. There is no legitimate fear tactic. There is no ulterior motive in inviting people to join the legitimate community.

 

[sojourner]

That does not answer the argument made.

Surprise!

Believe or burn. That's the offer.

Do you deny that?

Yes! Vehemently!

 

[sojourner]

It's not that complicated, I get it. Worship or pay the price.

No, you don't get it. Worship is never compulsory or conditional. If it were, it wouldn't be worship. It'd be something altogether different from worship.

 

[sojourner]

I already addressed this. I'm not refusing any offer, because the Bible is a work of fiction. I am criticizing the God of the Bible just as I would criticize any character in any work of fiction.

With one difference: Your criticism is fictional, because the Christian faith just don't work the way you think it does.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Jumping in....

Not really. You've given absolutely no justification for the rather bizarre assumption that suicide bombers are good people until evil, evil religion gets hold of them. Or did I just miss it?

I'm not assuming that all suicide bombers are good people doing the evil deeds of religion, but some are. There are interviews with the families and communities of deceased suicide bombers. Sometimes they're innocent teenagers with spotless criminal records that've been told that if they join a terrorist organization and do Allah's work, they'll be rewarded in the afterlife.

 

[Storm]

No, you don't get it. Worship is never compulsory or conditional. If it were, it wouldn't be worship. It'd be something altogether different from worship.

What is your understanding of the word "worship?"

 

[sojourner]

Steven Weinberg put it perfectly: "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Sometimes good people do do evil things, though...

 

[sojourner]

If someone tells you they'll kill your entire family if you don't do x, odds are you'll do x. Religion can have a similar effect. "Suicide bomb that building or God will be very upset with you."

I don't think God ever asked us to be suicide-bombers...

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Yes! Vehemently!

OK, if I don't believe do I burn?

 

[Storm]

I'm not assuming that all suicide bombers are good people doing the evil deeds of religion, but some are. There are interviews with the families and communities of deceased suicide bombers. Sometimes they're innocent teenagers with spotless criminal records that've been told that if they join a terrorist organization and do Allah's work, they'll be rewarded in the afterlife.

A spotless criminal record does not indicate a good morality, and families tend to be biased.

I have to agree with Enoch, here. Good people do not strap bombs to their chests and murder civilians, no matter what their priests tell them.

 

[sojourner]

He's the LORD and demands to be worshipped and obeyed. Does he want slaves?... well, you said it, not me

God is Father and desires our worship and expects obdience -- just like any father.
God wants children, not slaves.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Would it be possible for a mod to condense sojourner's 17 one-line posts into a single post? Isn't there a rule against quintuplet posting or something, cause this is getting out of hand.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"I don't think God ever asked us to be suicide-bombers..."

Maybe not YOUR version of god. OBL would beg to differ.

 

[sojourner]

To be fair, sojourner, that's entirely dependent upon one's particular flavor of Christianity. In some versions, God definitely does precisely that.

They're mistaken, then.