Eternal grovelling or nonexistence?

[OmarKhayyam]

He is all powerful, there is nothing that He does not already have, and therefore nothing that we can give Him. It is for no self-serving purpose that He gives us attention. We can give Him nothing, slaves would be no use to Him.

He wants something different.

Man, Potential to Become like Heavenly Father (see also Father; Immortality; Perfection)
Gen. 1:26 (Moses 2:26) let them have dominion
Gen. 3:22 (Moses 4:28) man is become as one of us
Lev. 19:2 (1 Pet. 1:16) be holy: for I ... am holy
Ps. 8:5 thou hast made him a little lower than the angels
Ps. 8:6 madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands
Ps. 82:6 ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High
Matt. 5:48 (3 Ne. 12:48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father
Luke 24:39 spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have
John 10:34 (Ps. 82:1–8; D&C 76:58) Is it not written in your law ... Ye are gods
Acts 17:29 we are the offspring of God
Rom. 8:17 heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ
2 Cor. 3:18 changed into the same image from glory to glory
Gal. 4:7 if a son, then an heir of God through Christ
Eph. 4:13 Till we all come ... unto a perfect man
Heb. 12:9 be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live
1 Jn. 3:2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him
Rev. 3:21 him that overcometh will ... sit with me in my throne
2 Ne. 2:25 men are, that they might have joy
3 Ne. 9:17 to them have I given to become the sons of God
3 Ne. 27:27 what manner of men ought ye to be ... even as I am
3 Ne. 28:10 your joy shall be full ... shall be even as I am
D&C 14:7 you shall have eternal life
D&C 88:29 Ye who are quickened by ... celestial glory
D&C 88:107 saints shall ... be made equal with him
D&C 93:20 you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified
D&C 93:29 Man was also in the beginning with God
D&C 121:32 every man shall enter into his eternal presence
D&C 129:3 spirits of just men made perfect
D&C 130:1 he is a man like ourselves
D&C 130:22 Father has a body of flesh and bones
D&C 131:2 (131:1–4) in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order
D&C 132:20 (132:1–24) shall they be gods, because they have all power
D&C 133:57 that men might be made partakers of the glories
Moses 1:39 to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man
JS-H 1:17 I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy
See also 2 Tim. 2:10–12; 1 Ne. 11:11; D&C 50:24.
(Topical Guide | MMan, Potential to Become like Heavenly Father:Entry)

Does any of that actually MEAN anything?

Do theist really think that parroting their favorite book of fables impresses anyone?

 

[idea]

Devil, Church of
Matt. 13:38 tares are the children of the wicked one
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the d.
1 Pet. 4:3 we walked in ... abominable idolatries
Rev. 12:17 dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with ... her seed
Rev. 17:1 great whore that sitteth upon many waters
Rev. 18:21 with violence shall ... Babylon be thrown down
1 Ne. 13:6 great and abominable church
1 Ne. 13:32 parts of the gospel kept back by that abominable church
1 Ne. 14:9 abominable church ... whose foundation is the d.
1 Ne. 14:10 two churches only ... of the Lamb of God ... of the d.
1 Ne. 22:13 (2 Ne. 28:18) abominable church, ... whore of all the earth
2 Ne. 6:12 do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church
2 Ne. 10:16 whore of all the earth
Alma 5:39 d. is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold
3 Ne. 27:11 built upon ... works of the d. ... cast into the fire
D&C 18:20 contend against no church, save ... church of the d.
D&C 29:21 abominable church ... shall be cast down
D&C 88:94 great church, the mother of abominations.
(Topical Guide | D Devil, Church of:Entry)

 

[idea]

Does any of that actually MEAN anything?

Do theist really think that parroting their favorite book of fables impresses anyone?

You tell me - what could we possibly give to an all-powerful God who already has everything? We cannot give Him anything.

"If I have seen farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of Giants" - some learn from others and see farther. Others insist on learning how to make the wheel for themselves and remain in the stone age their entire life.

 

[Enoch07]

You missed the point. Often suicide bombers are good kids that have been convinced by religion that they're doing something great for God.

Now that is a flat out lie and you are totally ignoring reality. Terrorist are psycho-paths that take advantage of innocent children. These children do not line up to kill themselves because they believe they are doing something for God. You need to spend some time in the real world and take your head out of the t.v. every once in awhile. You are no better than Rush Limbaugh with your closed minded, narrow views. The problems of the world are brought on by Evil people. People who murder, rape, pillage, not because religion told them to. But because they enjoy it. If you cannot see that it is their own personal goals and not religion then you will never be able to understand the world.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Now that is a flat out lie and you are totally ignoring reality. Terrorist are psycho-paths that take advantage of innocent children. These children do not line up to kill themselves because they believe they are doing something for God. You need to spend some time in the real world and take your head out of the t.v. every once in awhile. You are no better than Rush Limbaugh with your closed minded, narrow views. The problems of the world are brought on by Evil people. People who murder, rape, pillage, not because religion told them to. But because they enjoy it. If you cannot see that it is their own personal goals and not religion then you will never be able to understand the world.

And they use religion to convince innocent people to follow them.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"People who murder, rape, pillage, not because religion told them to. But because they enjoy it. "

So these guys enjoy flying planes into buildings?
Just a days work to them?
Like a round of golf maybe?

It BELIEF in a god. First last always. NOBODY kills themselves for "FUN."

 

[Enoch07]

And they use religion to convince innocent people to follow them.

Wrong. They use religion to make you think they are doing it for religious reasons. That is the only reason they incorporate religion at all. And you fell for it hook, line, and sinker just like they wanted you to.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

" Others insist on learning how to make the wheel for themselves and remain in the stone age their entire life"

IF - IF I say - my choice is the Stone Age or your god?

Bring on the rocks.

 

[Enoch07]

"People who murder, rape, pillage, not because religion told them to. But because they enjoy it. "

So these guys enjoy flying planes into buildings?
Just a days work to them?
Like a round of golf maybe?

It BELIEF in a god. First last always. NOBODY kills themselves for "FUN."

Nope they are just idiots. Why do think Osama sits in a cave drinking wine while all his troops kill themselves? If he really had "religious beliefs" like they supposedly do he would have suicide bombed himself already. But instead he sits in a cave relaxing while his idiot followers do all the dirty work for him. All the time he laughs at them and indeed you for thinking it is for religion.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Nope they are just idiots. Why do think Osama sits in a cave drinking wine while all his troops kill themselves? If he really had "religious beliefs" like they supposedly do he would have suicide bombed himself already. But instead he sits in a cave relaxing while his idiot followers do all the dirty work for him. All the time he laughs at them and indeed you for thinking it is for religion.

And they follow him because he's convinced them that they're doing Allah's work by killing infidels.

 

[Enoch07]

And they follow him because he's convinced them that they're doing Allah's work by killing infidels.

Like I said they are idiots. That is not Islams fault though.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Like I said they are idiots. That is not Islams fault though.

Nevertheless it's an example of religion being used for evil.

 

[Enoch07]

Nevertheless it's an example of religion being used for evil.

Sorry it is not. It is an example of evil men using religion as a disguise. Stop being so biased. And you might see the world for what it really is one day.

 

[Evandr]

This may be a topic for a different thread, but you raise an interesting point. For the Christians who don't believe that anyone gets sent to Hell, where does Satan reside? Perhaps just Satan and his close buddies are in Hell, but no humans get sent there?

Mormons believe that true justice demands a more complex system than the Heaven or Hell concept, something along the lines of three degrees of glory, but I won't get into that here. I guess the best way to sum it up is that those who are cast into outer darkness as sons and daughters of perdition are those whose rebellion surpasses all opportunities to merit even the lowest degree of glory. These are they who would openly crucify Christ again without having to rely on Faith as to His divinity, in other words, having a perfect knowledge of the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy Father, they would still rebel against them as did Lucifer in the beginning. It is not something a lot of people are going to do knowing what they know about outer darkness. Exactly where that is I have not the foggiest idea but I know it is there and it is not a place I want to be.

Outer darkness is the place prepared for Lucifer and his followers wherein there is nothing but misery, weeping, wailing and a gnashing of teeth. It is a place wherein all the light of divinity has been extinguished. To get yourself cast out to that point is a decision a person makes with their eyes wide open with full knowledge of the associated ramifications. Now, here is the unusual part - because Christ has made it possible for all in mortality to be resurrected and receive their physical bodies again, those who choose to be cast into outer darkness will go with their eternal bodies and that will make Lucifer and his present followers subservient to them.

So you believe Hell is just a state of mind, not a destination of eternal damnation? Or does that state of mind last forever after death?

It is both. Our Heavenly Father loves us far too much to be the source of eternal punishment but that still cannot allow mercy to rob justice so a system has been set up wherein even the most wicked of us who are willing, when all is said and done, to bend the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ can still reside in a state of eternal Glory. But don't be fooled, the only reason that we can abide this earth existence without going stark raving mad is because a veil of forgetfulness has been drawn across our memory of what living in the presence of God was like. I have heard it said that the lowest degree of glory would be similar to this earthly existence without Satan and his followers hanging around to tempt us and make thing miserable. That world will be a glorious place by comparison to ours wherein there is no death, no sickness, no reason to fear, HOWEVER, those who live there will have no veil to cloud their memory of the first and second degrees, degrees so far and above that of the lowest degree that to live in the lowest degree, eternally barred from forward progress (a condition called damnation), would cause regret and mental anguish so great that it has been compared to being cast into a pit of fire and brimstone. Remember that the term Damnation is not a catch all term. We are all on a path that can lead back to our Heavenly Father, it's just that some, due to their actions will be halted at various points along that path and thusly it can be said that their forward progress has been "Damned"

 

[CarlinKnew]

Sorry it is not. It is an example of evil men using religion as a disguise. Stop being so biased. And you might see the world for what it really is one day.

We've already discussed this. I know you like to argue in circles with an occasional personal attack thrown in, but are you paying attention at all? I'll bring you back up to speed on our conversation, because it seems like you've forgotten the past couple of posts:

And they follow him because he's convinced them that they're doing Allah's work by killing infidels.

Like I said they are idiots. That is not Islams fault though.

Maybe they're idiots, and maybe it's not "Islam's fault," but they're doing it because they've been convinced that they're doing Allah's work. Evil men use religion to convince innocent men to do evil deeds. Does it make sense now?

 

[Storm]

Jumping in....

Evil men use religion to convince innocent men to do evil deeds. Does it make sense now?

Not really. You've given absolutely no justification for the rather bizarre assumption that suicide bombers are good people until evil, evil religion gets hold of them. Or did I just miss it?

 

[sojourner]

The Christian God is called "The LORD," a self explanatory title, "lord" being synonymous with "master". He demands worship at the threat of eternal punishment. He's not just a father but a master.

No. God doesn't do that. You're mistaken. The Christian God is also called, "Father." In fact, Jesus (who was, after all, fully human) called God, "Daddy." Jesus also said that he doesn't call us servants, but friends.

 

[sojourner]

Or demanded.

Demanded? Now you're just being obtuse. God doesn't demand. To demand nullifies a relationship based upon love, which is what the Divine/human relationship is.

 

[Storm]

No. God doesn't do that. You're mistaken. The Christian God is also called, "Father." In fact, Jesus (who was, after all, fully human) called God, "Daddy." Jesus also said that he doesn't call us servants, but friends.

To be fair, sojourner, that's entirely dependent upon one's particular flavor of Christianity. In some versions, God definitely does precisely that.

 

[sojourner]

Why would anyone want freewill when the consequences of exercising that freewill can equal a torment in hell?

It doesn't.