painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Evolution has life starting in the water too.... but hey, where's the proof right?
wa:do
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EVOLUTION, what a lie.
- Thread starter Gharib
- Start date
wa:do
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
there had to be a logical rebuttal to refute to start with... Your argument wasn't logical, so how can I logically rebut it?
wa:do
[QUOTE Jose Fly]Who asked you a question? What question did they ask of you?(End quote)
Response: Everyone participating on the thread asked for proof that either ToE isn't true or tried to prove it is.
(Quote Josefly)
You didn't answer the question. What exactly would you consider to be "proof" that new species evolve? You won't accept multiple, independent personal accounts and you won't go anywhere to look at data. What else is there? Aren't you rigging the game so no one can meet your demands?(End Quote)
Response: The act of me actually seeing something evolve or prove that Allah has created species with the ability to evolve into another.
Response: Everyone participating on the thread asked for proof that either ToE isn't true or tried to prove it is.
(Quote Josefly)
You didn't answer the question. What exactly would you consider to be "proof" that new species evolve? You won't accept multiple, independent personal accounts and you won't go anywhere to look at data. What else is there? Aren't you rigging the game so no one can meet your demands?(End Quote)
Response: The act of me actually seeing something evolve or prove that Allah has created species with the ability to evolve into another.
EVERYTHING is created from water, more or less.(I can't think of anything that's not created from "hydrogen" atm, or ultimately we're all made from atoms, or something? Someone who knows more can answer this in detail if they like
So evolution is still a possibility.
Response: Not according to the nature in which we are created.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
So you will only accept what you can see personally?
wa:do
Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof?
ManTimeForgot
Temporally Challenged
Response: There is no test needed. That's what you refuse to acknowledge. All that's necessary for someone to know whether something evolved into another species is one thing....EYES. You have to see it happen. No one has.
Oh really? Clearly people have. I have seen natural selection action. I watched as over the course of several years Argentine Ants supplanted the local ant populations in southern California. So what was once an area populated entirely by "army ants" was now entirely populated by argentine ants. You keep saying "no one has ever seen this, and cry foul whenever anyone claims to have done so." Put up or Shut up.
Response: Then who are you talking to?
Prove to me that I am talking to anything other than myself.
Response: I'm o.k.
Obviously not since you are taking it on hearsay that you will die. Prove to yourself that you need food to live. Clearly that is a far more important question than how life originated on Earth.
Response: Prove it.
Ok, Fine. I will. The universe is not equal to God. Therefore the universe is imperfect. This is manifestly true since the universe exhibits qualities of limitation. A part can never exhibit a quality which the whole does not itself possess; therefore we and all other parts of the universe are imperfect. Since imperfection has limited qualities that must mean that perceptual ability and perspective of all beings which are imperfect must be similarly limited (that is they are not unlimited). Since our information gathering faculties are limited that means that there will ALWAYS be some information that we do not possess. Thus in order to be 100%, absolutely certain about anything that which is to be proven must be entirely self-evident. Anything requiring knowledge of factors outside itself cannot be entirely self-evident. Thus anything which is not contradiction (self-negating) or tautology (self-supporting) must be impossible to know with absolute certainty.
QED Care to try some more?
Response:
In ch: 4:82 of the qur'an we read, "Will they not,then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Also in ch.2:23 we read "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful".
Here we have two tests to prove the authenticity and truth of the qur'an. Once applied, you will come to learn that the qur'an is in fact from Allah and has never nor will it ever be corrupted.
So I am supposed to believe that just because someone can create something which is logically consistent and beautiful to read that that must mean it is absolutely true? So does this mean that I am also supposed to believe Aesop's Fables are also the Word of God?
MTF
Oh really? Clearly people have. I have seen natural selection action. I watched as over the course of several years Argentine Ants supplanted the local ant populations in southern California. So what was once an area populated entirely by "army ants" was now entirely populated by argentine ants. You keep saying "no one has ever seen this, and cry foul whenever anyone claims to have done so." Put up or Shut up.
Response: Then who are you talking to?
Prove to me that I am talking to anything other than myself.
Response: I'm o.k.
Obviously not since you are taking it on hearsay that you will die. Prove to yourself that you need food to live. Clearly that is a far more important question than how life originated on Earth.
Response: Prove it.
Ok, Fine. I will. The universe is not equal to God. Therefore the universe is imperfect. This is manifestly true since the universe exhibits qualities of limitation. A part can never exhibit a quality which the whole does not itself possess; therefore we and all other parts of the universe are imperfect. Since imperfection has limited qualities that must mean that perceptual ability and perspective of all beings which are imperfect must be similarly limited (that is they are not unlimited). Since our information gathering faculties are limited that means that there will ALWAYS be some information that we do not possess. Thus in order to be 100%, absolutely certain about anything that which is to be proven must be entirely self-evident. Anything requiring knowledge of factors outside itself cannot be entirely self-evident. Thus anything which is not contradiction (self-negating) or tautology (self-supporting) must be impossible to know with absolute certainty.
QED Care to try some more?
Response:
In ch: 4:82 of the qur'an we read, "Will they not,then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Also in ch.2:23 we read "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful".
Here we have two tests to prove the authenticity and truth of the qur'an. Once applied, you will come to learn that the qur'an is in fact from Allah and has never nor will it ever be corrupted.
So I am supposed to believe that just because someone can create something which is logically consistent and beautiful to read that that must mean it is absolutely true? So does this mean that I am also supposed to believe Aesop's Fables are also the Word of God?
MTF
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
This thread was already well established when you came along. You certainly didn't come into it because someone asked you to, or because someone asked you a question.
So again, why are you bothering asking for "proof" of something you've already declared can't possibly exist? Don't you see the contradiction?
But you won't go anywhere to look, will you?
Response: Either that or proof that Allah created within nature for a species to evolve into another.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Which is apparently only what you can see yourself... as you will not accept the work of others as evidence.
wa:do
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
ditto...
wa:do
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Do you apply this same standard to atoms? You won't accept that they exist until you yourself see one?
O.K., since you insist on observing for yourself, fortunately science invites you to do just that. You can go to London, or to see the nylon bug, or to any of the labs that have evolved new species of fruit flies, or you can even develop your own strain of bacteria--that can be done in a few months. Please report back when you have at least exerted the effort. Until then, I think I'll listen to the people who have bothered to do the work, not someone too lazy to bother, who only scoffs at the hard work of others.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
The question isn't whether they have done so, but you would accept as proof. We will now evaluate that to see whether you're being consistent.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Not me, Fatihah, you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odion
So when God created the Earth, he created the, dachshund, great dane, chihuahua, the Tibetan mastiff, the bulldog, rottweiler?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatihah
Response: Yes.
So, according to you, not me, you, you are saying that God created the various breeds of dog at the time of creation, and they haven't changed since, right?
[QUOTE Jose Fly]This thread was already well established when you came along. You certainly didn't come into it because someone asked you to, or because someone asked you a question.
So again, why are you bothering asking for "proof" of something you've already declared can't possibly exist? Don't you see the contradiction?(End quote)
Response: Because they said they have proof. So I ask for proof to show from their own proof that they don't have proof.
(Quote JoseFly)
But you won't go anywhere to look, will you?(End quote)
Response: You can't look at something that doesn't exist.
So again, why are you bothering asking for "proof" of something you've already declared can't possibly exist? Don't you see the contradiction?(End quote)
Response: Because they said they have proof. So I ask for proof to show from their own proof that they don't have proof.
(Quote JoseFly)
But you won't go anywhere to look, will you?(End quote)
Response: You can't look at something that doesn't exist.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Well, do we still have passenger pigeons? Dodo birds? Bali tigers? Red gazelles? New Zealand Quail? Wholly Mammoths? Great Auks? Anatolian leopards? Mastodons? Quagga? Chinese elephant? Arabian ostrich? Are they still with us, or are they extinct?
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
What if you went and looked, and lo, they were there, would you change your position?
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
Ah, so you came here not because you were asked a question, but because you saw people claiming to have "proof" of the evolution of new species. So your initial statement wasn't true, was it?
And in the rational world, multiple published papers in peer-reviewed scientific journals are "proof" enough of something (using "proof" in its colloquial sense). At the very least, they constitute very strong evidence that something is indeed so. But I think we all realize by now that you don't live in this world and firmly believe that saying "they're lying" without reading the papers, talking to the scientists, or taking the time to see their work yourself is a valid rebuttal.
How do you know it doesn't exist if you refuse to look?
[QUOTE Autodidact]Do you apply this same standard to atoms? You won't accept that they exist until you yourself see one?(End quote)
Response: You don't have to see atoms to know that they exists. I have electrical equipment that I can turn on and off to verify it's existence. Evolution on the other hand requires sight. You know this already. You can't possibly know if something evolved unless you've seen it take place.
(Quote Autididact)
O.K., since you insist on observing for yourself, fortunately science invites you to do just that. You can go to London, or to see the nylon bug, or to any of the labs that have evolved new species of fruit flies, or you can even develop your own strain of bacteria--that can be done in a few months. Please report back when you have at least exerted the effort. Until then, I think I'll listen to the people who have bothered to do the work, not someone too lazy to bother, who only scoffs at the hard work of others.(End quote)
Response: Seeing a bug doesn't mean that it actually evolved from another species.
Response: You don't have to see atoms to know that they exists. I have electrical equipment that I can turn on and off to verify it's existence. Evolution on the other hand requires sight. You know this already. You can't possibly know if something evolved unless you've seen it take place.
(Quote Autididact)
O.K., since you insist on observing for yourself, fortunately science invites you to do just that. You can go to London, or to see the nylon bug, or to any of the labs that have evolved new species of fruit flies, or you can even develop your own strain of bacteria--that can be done in a few months. Please report back when you have at least exerted the effort. Until then, I think I'll listen to the people who have bothered to do the work, not someone too lazy to bother, who only scoffs at the hard work of others.(End quote)
Response: Seeing a bug doesn't mean that it actually evolved from another species.