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EVOLUTION, what a lie.
- Thread starter Gharib
- Start date
Response: No one said it did. But in order to "show" something to be the truth, you need proof.
Ghostaka
Active Member
***
I don't know why you can't understand that the way you think of us "being close-minded" or subjunctive because of faith, can be applied exactly to your approach to Islam and/or the Qur'an? You think that you are the right ones because somehow you can "think clearer"? The same "clouded judgment idea" or "willfully ignorant" ideas are seen in your cases by people of faith. I'm not sure if you've realized this.
Peace be upon you.
Response: Not according to post 1734.
Ghostaka
Active Member
Umm kidney or heart transplants anyone? Sure they have have to be slightly genetically modified to do so (oooh I'm tisk-ing right now!) but in terms of output and size etc.. They wouldn't waste time on something if it didn't work right?
Peace be upon you.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
How do you know how much study I've put into the Quran?
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
I don't understand your post.
Ghostaka
Active Member
I don't, you must tell me. However, you wouldn't be the only one remember.
Peace be upon you.
Response: You've already said yourself that ToE isn't true .(Post 1734) So what's the purpose of your question?
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
1.)Post 1734 is a post of yours retard
2.) Your a liar. She says no such thing, its only YOU saying she said it
more PROOF that your a liar, before long, we will have a mountain of it. but we cant expect a liar to tell the truth, goes against their nature.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
If you don't know how much study I've put into the Quran, how were you able to say: "the way you think of us "being close-minded" or subjunctive because of faith, can be applied exactly to your approach to Islam and/or the Qur'an"?I don't, you must tell me. However, you wouldn't be the only one remember.
No, you don't need proof. You need a standard of evidence. Get this idea of proof out of your mind. Proof has no business in science.
ManTimeForgot
Temporally Challenged
Response: You actually sat outside for several years and watched ants evolve in southern California? How did you work? How did you wash? If you have kids, how did that happen? Where exactly did you sleep outside?
No i didn't actually sit outside for several years. I never said I witnessed evolution. I said I witnessed Natural Selection. Nature works such that the most fit species survives. That is what I witnessed. One day all of the ant hills were army ants, and several years later there were no army ants and a bunch of argentine ants. Survival of the fittest at work.
Incidentally, if God made dogs as they are from the beginning, then how is it that there are no depictions of dogs larger than wolves during the time of Muhammed or Jesus? Surely the sight of a St. Barnard would have given them pause and made them want to draw it? And why is it if all living things were created as they were at the beginning no one who died at that period of time has any anti-bodies from modern diseases?
Response: I'm o.k.
Response: I'm o.k.
That's not proof. I have nothing but words on a computer screen; what proof do I have that there is even a you to begin with? And in the event that you are in fact a real person what proof do you have that injury, starvation, or deprivation of oxygen will cause you to die? Isn't that all hearsay? Once you are prepared to admit to me that your reality is based on false pretenses I will let you go. As it is now you are nothing but a hypocrite applying impossible standards of truth at whim without regard to how they apply to your own life. But if you are content being a hypocrite then I suppose there really isn't any reason for us to have a conversation now is there?
Response: But a being which can create can set the limitations to it's creation and that limitation does not have to be the ability to not learn the perfection of something and provide proof, which is what Allah did.
So you are saying you can identify perfection? Prove it. Explain to me how many infinities are contained within the Qu'ran. Explain to me what the infinities in the Qu'ran mean. And if there are no infinities in the Qu'ran that you can identify, then you cannot identify perfection; plain and simple.
Response: No, it means that it is not humanly possible to produce a chapter like the qur'an's. Therefore, since it is humanly, impossible, it must be from a higher power, which is Allah. You disagree, the challenge still stands. Produce something like it.
So because something is beautiful it must be divine. That's really all your challenge amounts to. It is possible for humans to pen something like the Qu'ran because WE DID. Divinely inspired does not mean divinely written. Produce something like Beethoven's 9th symphony. If you can't, then it must be divinely inspired. And until you admit to me that Beethoven's 9th symphony was divinely inspired I will not hold out any hope for the Qu'ran.
MTF
No i didn't actually sit outside for several years. I never said I witnessed evolution. I said I witnessed Natural Selection. Nature works such that the most fit species survives. That is what I witnessed. One day all of the ant hills were army ants, and several years later there were no army ants and a bunch of argentine ants. Survival of the fittest at work.
Incidentally, if God made dogs as they are from the beginning, then how is it that there are no depictions of dogs larger than wolves during the time of Muhammed or Jesus? Surely the sight of a St. Barnard would have given them pause and made them want to draw it? And why is it if all living things were created as they were at the beginning no one who died at that period of time has any anti-bodies from modern diseases?
Response: I'm o.k.
Response: I'm o.k.
That's not proof. I have nothing but words on a computer screen; what proof do I have that there is even a you to begin with? And in the event that you are in fact a real person what proof do you have that injury, starvation, or deprivation of oxygen will cause you to die? Isn't that all hearsay? Once you are prepared to admit to me that your reality is based on false pretenses I will let you go. As it is now you are nothing but a hypocrite applying impossible standards of truth at whim without regard to how they apply to your own life. But if you are content being a hypocrite then I suppose there really isn't any reason for us to have a conversation now is there?
Response: But a being which can create can set the limitations to it's creation and that limitation does not have to be the ability to not learn the perfection of something and provide proof, which is what Allah did.
So you are saying you can identify perfection? Prove it. Explain to me how many infinities are contained within the Qu'ran. Explain to me what the infinities in the Qu'ran mean. And if there are no infinities in the Qu'ran that you can identify, then you cannot identify perfection; plain and simple.
Response: No, it means that it is not humanly possible to produce a chapter like the qur'an's. Therefore, since it is humanly, impossible, it must be from a higher power, which is Allah. You disagree, the challenge still stands. Produce something like it.
So because something is beautiful it must be divine. That's really all your challenge amounts to. It is possible for humans to pen something like the Qu'ran because WE DID. Divinely inspired does not mean divinely written. Produce something like Beethoven's 9th symphony. If you can't, then it must be divinely inspired. And until you admit to me that Beethoven's 9th symphony was divinely inspired I will not hold out any hope for the Qu'ran.
MTF
ManTimeForgot
Temporally Challenged
He isn't interested in evidence. His kind is only interested in proof. His mind is only capable of processing black and white; either or; yes and no; 100% or 0%. There are no shades of grey.
Any doubt at all about anything would mean that anything could be doubted; and once anything can be doubted, then that means his religion should be doubted. And if religion is doubted, then this means that "I might not know what is going to happen to me after I die" and that is a scary prospect.
MTF
[QUOTE Jose Fly]So Fatihah, from what I can tell, you came here because you saw a thread on evolution where people were claiming that new species had been observed to evolve. You jumped in and demanded "proof" that it had occurred, with the belief that:
1) Multiple, independent scientific articles published in the peer-reviewed journals aren't "proof" because the scientists who wrote them are liars, even though you have never read the papers, met the scientists, or reviewed their work;
2) My personal account of the evolution of a new species isn't "proof" because I am a liar, even though you've never met me, don't know me, and didn't ask me any questions about the details;
3) You will not take the time to go see any of the new species yourself, let alone do the work necessary to study the data behind their evolution because your "common sense" tells you it can't happen.
So basically Fatihah, there is no possible way to "prove" to you that new species have evolved, is there? The only thing you will accept is to witness it with your own eyes, but if you won't look, you can't see it with your own eyes, can you?(End Quote)
Response: You can't see something that doesn't exist.
(Quote JoseFly)
That's not very rational, is it? That's not very open-minded or objective, is it? (End Quote)
Response: Of course it is. What's irrational is a person asking someone to see something that they both know doesn't exists. It's like your mother asking you to go deliver a letter to Santa Clause in the North Pole. Would you go? Are you irrational for not going?
(Quote JoseFly)
The question is, why would you act in such an irrational manner? Well, I think it's fairly obvious what's going on here. Your position can be boiled down to something very basic, and it's something I pointed out a long time ago in this very thread. Your position is simply...
"New species can't evolve because the Quran says Allah creates new species. Therefore, the evolution of new species contradicts the Quran, and since nothing can contradict the revealed word of Allah, the evolution of new species is a lie."
That's pretty much it, isn't it? We could add, "Therefore, it is impossible for there to be any evidence of the evolution of new species" and "Therefore, anyone who says they saw new species evolve is a liar", but that's kind of ancillary to the main point.
So it's rather pointless to go round and round arguing about data, published papers, and such, isn't it? The whole issue is that evolution contradicts how you read the Quran, right?(End quote)
Response: Not only that, but the simple fact that it doesn't exist, nor has anyone seen a species evolve into another, the fact that it's called a "theory" for a reason, the fact that not all scientists agree on everything, including ToE, the fact that I haven't seen it, nor has anyone else that I know, that they, know, that their friends know, etc., and the many loop holes in the scientific evidence itself.
(Quote JoseFly)
If that's so, then you've wasted a lot of your time and the time of a lot of other people arguing about side issues that are completely irrelevant to your position.(End quote)
Response: To a degree, you're right. It is a waste of time if a person isn't open minded.
1) Multiple, independent scientific articles published in the peer-reviewed journals aren't "proof" because the scientists who wrote them are liars, even though you have never read the papers, met the scientists, or reviewed their work;
2) My personal account of the evolution of a new species isn't "proof" because I am a liar, even though you've never met me, don't know me, and didn't ask me any questions about the details;
3) You will not take the time to go see any of the new species yourself, let alone do the work necessary to study the data behind their evolution because your "common sense" tells you it can't happen.
So basically Fatihah, there is no possible way to "prove" to you that new species have evolved, is there? The only thing you will accept is to witness it with your own eyes, but if you won't look, you can't see it with your own eyes, can you?(End Quote)
Response: You can't see something that doesn't exist.
(Quote JoseFly)
That's not very rational, is it? That's not very open-minded or objective, is it? (End Quote)
Response: Of course it is. What's irrational is a person asking someone to see something that they both know doesn't exists. It's like your mother asking you to go deliver a letter to Santa Clause in the North Pole. Would you go? Are you irrational for not going?
(Quote JoseFly)
The question is, why would you act in such an irrational manner? Well, I think it's fairly obvious what's going on here. Your position can be boiled down to something very basic, and it's something I pointed out a long time ago in this very thread. Your position is simply...
"New species can't evolve because the Quran says Allah creates new species. Therefore, the evolution of new species contradicts the Quran, and since nothing can contradict the revealed word of Allah, the evolution of new species is a lie."
That's pretty much it, isn't it? We could add, "Therefore, it is impossible for there to be any evidence of the evolution of new species" and "Therefore, anyone who says they saw new species evolve is a liar", but that's kind of ancillary to the main point.
So it's rather pointless to go round and round arguing about data, published papers, and such, isn't it? The whole issue is that evolution contradicts how you read the Quran, right?(End quote)
Response: Not only that, but the simple fact that it doesn't exist, nor has anyone seen a species evolve into another, the fact that it's called a "theory" for a reason, the fact that not all scientists agree on everything, including ToE, the fact that I haven't seen it, nor has anyone else that I know, that they, know, that their friends know, etc., and the many loop holes in the scientific evidence itself.
(Quote JoseFly)
If that's so, then you've wasted a lot of your time and the time of a lot of other people arguing about side issues that are completely irrelevant to your position.(End quote)
Response: To a degree, you're right. It is a waste of time if a person isn't open minded.
Ghostaka
Active Member
Maybe I should have highlighted the fact that my post was not only indented for you, (my bad
) but the whole of the A-team and its members. Why are you suggesting that I have underestimated the amount of "study" you've put into the Qur'an. Are you planning to nab me in some posts further along? P.S. How would I know you are being truthful (assuming a claim to have "studied" a lot)?
Peace be upon you.
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
Like Allah for instance
Again, like Allah
by the very same logic, creation cannot be real, for no one saw it happen. you havent seen it happen, nor has anyone else.
Fatinah, the man made of iron.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
And you can't see something if you refuse to look, even if it exists.
Ah, so would it be rational to say the Quran is full of lies and Mohammed was a fraud, even if I've never read the Quran or studied anything about Mohammed?
But you're forgetting, I've seen it with my own eyes. How can I say it doesn't exist, if it's right here in my back yard?
But don't worry about that. As we've established, arguing about the data is a waste of time and misses the real issue here. So let's drop the discussion of whether or not new species have evolved or if anyone has seen it happen.
So would you call yourself open-minded about evolution?
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
I was wondering how you could so easily make accusations about me and my approach to Islam without knowing a thing about me or how I've approached the faith.Maybe I should have highlighted the fact that my post was not only indented for you, (my bad
P.S. How would I know you are being truthful (assuming a claim to have "studied" a lot)?
Apology accepted.