How many prophesies have come to pass?,”a reliable source”,it’s impossible to prove there is one.
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For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?
- Thread starter Truthseeker
- Start date
How many prophesies have come to pass?,”a reliable source”,it’s impossible to prove there is one.
The Jews do not require the Bible or Quran interpretations, the Chrisrians do not require the Quran interpretations, so likewise you offer the Musilms do not need the Revelation of Baha’u’llah for interpretation, yet history proves that a Messenger is required to clarify past scriptures.
Would you say Muhammad imposed the correct interpretation on the Bible to the Christians? I would suggest Muhammad gave the Revelation from God giving the ability to see the Bible in the Light given by God, but God never imposes.
That is the choice you have. There is no compulsion in religion and Baha'u'llah did not Impose the interpretations given by God.
Regards Tony
It is uncanny how the Message of Baha’u’llah mirrors the events that this world now faces.
This Message is also explained by Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi and their predictions are unfolding with more and more clarity as the days roll on.
The world as it is today has already been seen by any Baha'i reading those scriptures since the beginning of the 1900's and especially up to 1957 when the last of Shoghi Effendi's predictions were given.
Regards Tony
firedragon
Veteran Member
I didn't say "Muslims only".
Sincerely what are you looking for bro? All I said was you were being irrelevant to the thread. Not "Muslims Only". Why create a strawman?
Unbelievable.
Salam
The Quran tells humans to use reasoning and says it's a way to avoid hell. The way Quran corrects the Torah and Bible is logical. It doesn't make sense for example for Solomon (a) to be emphasized to be chosen from God and wise, then dies a pagan after God chose him. Other corrections makes sense too.
However, the Bahai Faith, you would not through reasoning arrive at the conclusions your Prophet came up with. It's far fetch interpretations and is not appealing to reason, but appealing to forego reason and common sense.
The reasoning and common sense is the day of judgment occurs after we die, that is we have to prepare when we have to be accounted for our deeds. God does not prove everything right away when we die, but instead, will have a day which we all face our deeds all together and he will prove things then in a way that he is full control.
Yours and your Prophet's interpretation has to override the common sense. We have to go against common sense understanding for a far fetch one. While Quran is appealing for Jews and Christians to use common sense and reasoning and if they listen to the clear proofs, they will arrive at the corrections that Quran does for their religion.
It's a big difference.
Quran appeals to common sense and reasoning to correct the misguidance of past religions. It proves in a rational way to the human what the proper path and religion is. Bahai scriptures is asking to forego common sense and reasoning and accept their Prophet's claims with no proof it's the correct interpretation.
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firedragon
Veteran Member
In my life, to openly and frankly say in the open, I have never come across more dishonesty than this thread and the repeated support evidence. Never in my life. On top of that, the presence of false scholarship when someone cannot even read a word in arabic, has no knowledge of grammar, absolutely makes up meanings, tries to teach arabic to the naive, is another level of dishonesty. I initially interacted with Bahai's to learn about their theology and then realized they have some of the primary scripture in Arabic and got every thing I could gather. Although, it's not all. It's interesting. But these people don't know what they are talking about honestly.
But the cake is taken by the Arabic teacher who doesn't know Arabic. It's like a doctor who doesn't know medicine. Like an engineering professor who doesn't know basic math. I mean not even fundamental 4th grade math. Nothing sophisticated.
I am dumbfounded and will not interact with those particular individuals anymore. I don't even want to see those posts because they are butchering my language. So they are in the ignore list.
Thanks brother and I wish you all the best.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yes, I agree. If a person believes them. But we are asked to investigate on our own. For me, somethings just aren't that clear, while other things just don't make sense.
For you? I'm sure it all makes perfect sense. And I'm sure it's made you a better person.
But I get the same thing from Born-Again Christians. Believe in Jesus and you'll be saved. Mixed in with that message is a belief in Satan, hell, the resurrection, that Jesus is coming back, the 6-day creation, the world-wide flood. All things that Baha'is tell aren't true or not literally true. Yet, that belief for those Christian, all though wrong, has changed their lives for the better.
As I've said before... It makes me wonder if it matters what a person believes and whether or not it's true... as long as they believe it and try to live by it.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The only possible outcome to that line of argument is that your standard of proof is not relevant.
An imputation not based on any proof. The logic and reason used by Baha'is are the very same faculties available to all humans.
Instead of us imputing such things, it may be that our own selves have to be able to determine different frames of references.
Regards Tony
Entirely your choice CG, all I can offer is that yes it does matter, as this is the purpose given to us by God, to recognise and embrace the Messengers in the day we live.
There was no use warning us of the false prophets, if God was not to also give us the true Prophet.
You get the same thing precisely because that is the way of God. God keeps sending the Messengers and keeps telling us that we have the chance to embrace the Messengers in the age we live, to he born again.
Regards Tony
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If CG thinks that's a winner, then God help us all.
That a Baha'i can offer differnt understandings on quran verses using the explanations given by Baha'u'llah is not dishonest in any way shape or form. There is only one posting here that understands Arabic and Persian and I would expect, from what I read, that he does know the language (Most likely his mother tounge), he also has been given other explanations as to the meanings of Quran Passages from reading Baha'u'llah's explanations. That is not dishonest, it is open and fair discussion.
All I see you are doing firedragon is painting Islam in a light of gross intolerance.
Many Christians would offer the same dishonesty about the Quran verses about the Bible, but Muhammad was not Dishonest, neither are the people sharing what Muhammad offered, as they have a differnt light given on Biblical explanations.
Agree to disagree, move on.
I will offer to you that such imputations are a badge of honour to those receiving them, when they impart what they have found with love based in pure honesty.
@CG Didymus
Regards Tony
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Maybe for your prophet... if, in fact, he's really who he claims to be. But this wouldn't even apply to Jesus.
Who was closer to the truth? The Jews that converted to Christianity and came to believe in the Trinity? Or... the Jews that rejected Jesus and continued believing in their one true God?
Okay, who were the false prophets? And why do claim that they are false prophets?
Then what was the true prophet supposed to do?
Well, it's because I know what Baha'is do with the Bible and the NT. So, I imagine that they do the same thing with the Quran. And Baha'is do it with the Buddhist and Hindu Scriptures.
You know which NT scriptures I complain about. Making the "Three Woes" Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Making the mark of number of the beast, the 666, a date, the year the Umayyad's took control of Islam, which was 661AD, but Baha'is add five years to that, because they say Jesus was not born in year "zero."
Then taking several verses in the gospels that tell of the resurrection of Jesus and declare that those verses not literal. Even though they sound literal and there's no indication that the writers were suddenly being symbolic.
Now just because you believe those things... why should I? I did my own investigation and came to a different conclusion... that Baha'is are wrong.
Is that okay? Or must I agree with you?
It does apply CG, but that is for you to explore, it is a gift we can find, a gift only God gives.
"Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast"
The Bible offers many of these same challenges, that then became applicable to the Quran and now Baha'u'llah.
"2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."
"Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
The False Prophets are for you to decide.
All the best with you winners CG. That's for you to sort out, I can only advise they are not winner comments.
May God protect all humanity from all our ignorance. We need it CG.
Regards Tony
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I know there are some things... like the atomic bomb and World War 1. But what about the rise of the Soviet Union and China? But then the dissolving of the Soviet Union, but the rise of Russia? Did they predict the comeback of Islamic leaders in Iran. Especially since it effected the Baha'is in Iran so much. Did they predict the rise of far-right conservatives in the U.S. and in other countries?
But Shoghi Effendi and Abdul Baha' were not the manifestation. Do Baha'is believe they were prophets? But then, did all their prophecies come true? I'm sure Baha'is think so. But were they vague enough to make them easy to fit into whatever was going to happen?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Okay, what would you have advised those Jews that were faced with accepting this Jesus of the NT or rejecting him?
The only Jesus they would know about is the Jesus in the gospels. Would you have believed it? Virgin born, walked on water, cast out demons, raised Lazurus from the dead. So many miracles, how could they not believe that Jesus was from God? Except the even Baha'is say some of those things are literally true.
And then the big one... those Christians trying to convert those Jews tell them that Jesus rose from the dead and eyewitnesses saw him ascend into the clouds. And some angels told them that this Jesus would return in the same way.
More stuff the Baha'is don't believe literally happened. But these Christians were telling these Jews that all these things did happen. Oh, and they told them that Satan is real and trying to deceive them. Another thing Baha'is don't believe is true.
So, what is it that you would advise these Jews to do? Stay with their old beliefs? Or convert and believe this new religion that has messed things up so bad that they also insist that Jesus is God... And have burned people at the stake that questioned that belief.
Why don't any Muslims believe Angels (a) are humans? Why is only Bahais who come up with this conclusion?
If your Prophet did not tell you Angels were saintly humans and God's Angels are Prophets and the chosen ones, do you think you would arrive at this conclusion?
The reasonable answer is the common sense of humans would believe Angels to be non-humans when reading Quran. You have to override reasoning and common sense of language to arrive at a different conclusion.
This is just a sample.
The best way to answer that question is to read what they offered. That will take time, as Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi offered a great deal of advice, 60 years of it, but it will give you the picture of the current world. Both Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi got their ability to explain the results of Baha’u’llah's Message via the Covenant given by Baha'u'llah, when one understands that Covernant, one can also understand how what they offered is accurate.
All the best CG, I see no point of going into this in detail again. I have passed on all that I should, it would be up to any individual if they now choose to pursue what was offered in greater detail.
Getting it secondhand just gets polluted by the deficiencies of the delivery.
Regards Tony
They had the chance and still do have the chance of making their own decisions.
I would offer the same thing I offer to you and leave it up to them to decide, as I leave it up to you to decide.
Regards Tony
You are using a later history as a gauge.
The Jews had the chance when Jesus walked this earth, who knows what could have been if they had chosen differently. Who knows what may have happened if those that became the priests in Christianity and took control of its direction, had still allowed people to choose.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Regarding getting it secondhand:
“…… inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.”
How I interpret that passage is that we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of other people as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot determine whether Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God according to what other people say or do. In other words, we should never base our conclusions on other people's opinions.
What then do we do? We investigate the truth for ourselves.
How to Independently Investigate the Truth
Do you believe that religion and reason can agree? If so, you might be a Baha’i. The Baha’i teachings say that human beings possess intellectual abilities, inquisitive minds and curious...
bahaiteachings.org