For Parents: If God Told You To...

[helpmeplease]

I wonder why the believers can't honestly answer the question of the OP? If god told you to kill your child would you? Pretty simple question. My answer is I would not.

 

[rusra02]

If you meant that literally, no one here is condoning human sacrifice, obviously. If you meant that figuratively, as in modern day wars, soldiers willingly volunteer for the service, so no comparison there.

The number of child soldiers number into at least the hundreds of thousands. How many of those are volunteers? In many lands, military service is compulsory, with prison or worse the punishment for refusal. And parents often encourage their children to join the military in lands where currently only volunteers serve. So, yes, parents do sacrifice their children in this way.

Fetuses lack the qualities that define personhood. They aren't "children".

Psalm 139:16 records: "Your eyes saw even the embryo of me." They may not be children to you, but they are to our Creator.

Such people are horrible human beings, but again, how is this relevant to the topic at hand?

Some parents are very willing to sacrifice their children to their own detestable appetites.

You people make god seem as if he has serious ego/emotional issues.



That's all still beside the point.




What exactly did it cost god? What did god "lose"?

How does a parent feel when they send a child to school, knowing that their beloved child will be accosted by a bully? That the bully will punch and kick, and verbally abuse their child? Or the pain parents feel as they see their child undergo painful medical treatments?
I believe the emotional pain Jesus persecution and death caused Jehovah we can never fully know. We can relate to the emotional pain Abraham experienced while walking 3 days with his son to the place God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac.
Romans 8:32 says that "[God]...did not even spare his own Son but delivered him up for us all." To me, this shows God's loving concern for each of us.

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[Heathen Hammer]

If you really coined the spiderman fallacy, I love you!

I will not make out with you!

Psalm 139:16 records: "Your eyes saw even the embryo of me." They may not be children to you, but they are to our Creator.

Don't be ridiculous; the Bible's writers did not use the word 'embryo'. They couldn't even make steel. That's a modern translation with a modern word imposed to give more emotional support to some anti-abortion movement. Man's word, not God's.

 

[BobbyisStrange]

I wonder why the believers can't honestly answer the question of the OP? If god told you to kill your child would you? Pretty simple question. My answer is I would not.

It is because most people, with the exception of Chinu, would not do this horrendous deed...no matter how much faith they have in their personal god or gods...so instead of simply saying, no way would I ever do that...they spin it and say, no way my god would ever ask that...or they immediately jump to the story of Abraham, so they can say, God didn't let Abraham sacrifice his child...trying to make the actions of God a justification of Abrahams intentions...it's like the people here are to scared to say no they wouldn't do this, becaus they are saying they would disobey God...however at the same time (for Christians who keep bringing up Abraham)by not putting their child on the slab they are expressing they don't have enough of this faith that their God is doing the right thing, which I think is a good thing.. it's fascinating

 

[Kathryn]

I wouldn't lose sleep over it...you've made the thread about Abraham, Jesus and Gods plan...totally different than answering a hypothetical question. Me Myself said it correctly, God's motive isn't important, I wanted to know if you would kill your child If your God commanded it. Not what Abraham knew or didn't have at his disposal at the time he was going to MURDER his child.

I wonder why the believers can't honestly answer the question of the OP? If god told you to kill your child would you? Pretty simple question. My answer is I would not.

Don't be coy. You know the OP was indirectly referring to the Abraham/Isaac story, and so does everyone else.

But I'll humor you, at the risk of repeating myself:

This question is aimed at theists...If your God came to you and commanded that you sacrifice your child to him/her/it or them, would you do it?

My God wouldn't come to me in the 21st century and command me to sacrifice my child - at least not literally, on an altar, with a knife (ie, kill my child). So...me being me, in the 21st century, would not believe that God was asking this of me, so I would assume it wasn't God, and I wouldn't do it. There, I've repeated myself just for you.

This question is like the other hypothetical question, "If God can do anything, can He make a rock that's too heavy for Him to pick up?" I don't usually waste my time answering that sophist question, and I shouldn't have wasted any of my time answering this one either.

But then...I have some time to waste...

 

[rusra02]

At last.
The sacrifice was made to god so that this all forgiving god had an excuse to forgive and withdraw the penalty he imposed on mankind for the unintentional (on Adams part) mistake the same god set him up to make. Is this also the god who is love?
What's even better is that he planned this sacrifice, of his son, to himself, before he created anything at all. Is this also the god who is love?
Are you serious that god needed a legal reason to do these things? And that legal reason was a human sacrifice? Do you speak any language other than absurd?

Your defense of Adam is not based on the facts. In fact, Adam's sin was wilfull and he manifested no repentance for his wrongdoing. He fully knew the consequences of his sin, unlike Eve, who was deceived by Satan.(1 Timothy 2:14)
Your also are wrong in saying God was responsible for Adam's sin. That is no more true than a law against murder being responsible for a murderer killing someone.
Neither did God plan his Son's sacrifice "before he created anything at all."
Concerning Jehovah, Deuteronomy 32:4 states: "perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he." God will never act unjustly, and his providing the ransom did lay a legal basis to forgive sins. (Romans 3:22-26)
As to God's loving provision being "absurd", the words of 1 Corinthians 1:18 come to mind: "For the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is God's power."

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[BobbyisStrange]

Don't be coy. You know the OP was indirectly referring to the Abraham/Isaac story, and so does everyone else.

I’m the OP and I wasn’t referencing this story.

 

[Kathryn]

You described a dog's sort of obedience. I think the "unthinking"... or perhaps at least "unquestioning" part was implied.

I don't know about your dogs, but mine definitely think, and question - in their little doggy ways.

Much as we think and question in our little human ways.

I think all that's irrelevant, frankly. In order to know that God wouldn't actually want Isaac sacrificed, Abraham would have to know exactly two things:

- God is good
- murdering people is bad

Which of these points was beyond Abraham's understanding?

Keep in mind that this is the same guy who actually went into the tent and told his 90 year old wife, "Let's make a baby!"

 

[Kathryn]

If you actually took the time to read and understand the overlying theme of the entire Bible, you might understand why it was presented in the way that it is. But, we both know your goal isn't actually to understand it. We can be honest about that right?

I wouldn't hold your breath. The same people are actually suddenly acting like the story of Abraham and Isaac is irrelevant to the OP.

I wouldn't call that particularly intellectually honest.

 

[Kathryn]

I'm not referring to any story... If your God told you to kill your child for it, would you do it...circumstance has nothing to do with it...would you obey your God?

So - that story about Abraham and Isaac in the Bible honestly has nothing to do with your OP? You weren't thinking of this story at all when you asked the question? Is that what you want us to believe?

OK - let's go with that for the sake of argument.

Now, let me explain to you how this forum and these threads work. When you ask a question such as the one above, people begin to discuss it, flesh it out, give examples, qualify their statements, etc. To Christian and Jewish and Muslim theists, the story of Abraham springs immediately to mind as a correlation. They are going to refer to that story since it is central to their theist faith.

 

[rusra02]

I will not make out with you!



Don't be ridiculous; the Bible's writers did not use the word 'embryo'. They couldn't even make steel. That's a modern translation with a modern word imposed to give more emotional support to some anti-abortion movement. Man's word, not God's.

Many translations use the word "embryo". Others use "fetus", "unformed substance", "unformed body", and other expressions. All of them use similar expressions. The important word in the scripture at Psalm 139:16 is "me", speaking of David before his birth, or even before his body parts were fully formed.
God's word, not man's.

 

[Kathryn]

do you really think we are making up those questions, that we are willingly not wanting to understand and that our interpretation, opinions or our POV's are
somehow beneath yours?

waitasec and Father Heathen don't seem to mind discussing the Abraham and Isaac story...hmmmm, apparently THEY see the relevance to this conversation...

 

[Kathryn]

Stop boasting already and educate us with your understanding Sleepy!

Seriously

Tell us all the things we are missing from the translations and the etceteras that are relevant and stuf

Wait a minute. You said this to me earlier:

In this OP we are talking about wheter it is okay to do something moraly wrong because a figure of spiritual authority asks us to.

Which is the deity and which were their intention isn´t that important here, what´s important is what do you know about the situation and the deity, etc.

Abraham didn´t know he was gong to spare his son, so it is not relevant for the judgement of this topic.

Apparently you're one of these people who doesn't think the discussion about Abraham and Isaac is relevant to the topic at hand, so why are you suddenly so interested in translations of the bible accounts?

 

[Koldo]

Many translations use the word "embryo". Others use "fetus", "unformed substance", "unformed body", and other expressions. All of them use similar expressions. The important word in the scripture at Psalm 139:16 is "me", speaking of David before his birth, or even before his body parts were fully formed.
God's word, not man's.

Aren't those David's words ( traditionally ) ?
And wasn't David a man?

 

[Kathryn]

I promise I´ll read, now start sharing!

Did you read the article I posted on a Jewish perspective of the story of Abraham and Isaac? You didn't give any indication that you did so. Please discuss the article.

Thanks.

 

[Father Heathen]

The number of child soldiers number into at least the hundreds of thousands. How many of those are volunteers? In many lands, military service is compulsory, with prison or worse the punishment for refusal. And parents often encourage their children to join the military in lands where currently only volunteers serve. So, yes, parents do sacrifice their children in this way.

They are horrible parents and horrible human beings. And any military that conscripts peoples against their will is horrible. So what's your point?

Psalm 139:16 records: "Your eyes saw even the embryo of me." They may not be children to you, but they are to our Creator.

Don't you think it's a bit arrogant to make such presumptions regarding god?

"When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman's husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine." -Exodus 21:22

If the bible god saw a fetus as a person, then wouldn't the punishment be death rather than a fine?

Some parents are very willing to sacrifice their children to their own detestable appetites.
How does a parent feel when they send a child to school, knowing that their beloved child will be accosted by a bully? That the bully will punch and kick, and verbally abuse their child? Or the pain parents feel as they see their child undergo painful medical treatments?
I believe the emotional pain Jesus persecution and death caused Jehovah we can never fully know. We can relate to the emotional pain Abraham experienced while walking 3 days with his son to the place God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac.
Romans 8:32 says that "[God]...did not even spare his own Son but delivered him up for us all." To me, this shows God's loving concern for each of us.

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And your point is?

 

[Kathryn]

I’m the OP and I wasn’t referencing this story.

Well, it's strange that so many other people see the correlation and you apparently still don't. I mean, I guess I have to take your word for it, but it does seem very odd.

It's a direct correlation. Sorry if that bothers you.

 

[BobbyisStrange]

So - that story about Abraham and Isaac in the Bible honestly has nothing to do with your OP? You weren't thinking of this story at all when you asked the question? Is that what you want us to believe?

OK - let's go with that for the sake of argument.

Now, let me explain to you how this forum and these threads work. When you ask a question such as the one above, people begin to discuss it, flesh it out, give examples, qualify their statements, etc. To Christian and Jewish and Muslim theists, the story of Abraham springs immediately to mind as a correlation. They are going to refer to that story since it is central to their theist faith.

No I wasn’t thinking of the story of Isaac and Abraham… I am being honest and truthful…I was reading the Bible, as I do every day, and a passage in Ezekiel caught my attention.
Ezekiel 20:25-26
25 “Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live; 26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the Lord.”</SPAN>
And I thought, I wonder what people would do if God did start asking for his followers to sacrifice their children to him. So I asked the question…However I didn’t want to just ask Christians, so I asked in a way where all people could answer.
I also dont care for your demeanor and suggesting I am a liar…again with the double standards…You want me to be nice to you, but you are at the boundaries of calling me a liar.

 

[Kathryn]

No I wasn’t thinking of the story of Isaac and Abraham… I am being honest and truthful…I was reading the Bible, as I do every day, and a passage in Ezekiel caught my attention.
Ezekiel 20:25-26
25 “Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live; 26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the Lord.”</SPAN>
And I thought, I wonder what people would do if God did start asking for his followers to sacrifice their children to him. So I asked the question…However I didn’t want to just ask Christians, so I asked in a way where all people could answer.
I also dont care for your demeanor and suggesting I am a liar…again with the double standards…You want me to be nice to you, but you are at the boundaries of calling me a liar.

I'm shocked that someone who claims to be so familiar with the bible doesn't see the correlation between the OP and the story of Abraham and Isaac. It's so obvious that it's simply hard to believe.

But regardless - the vast majority of theists WILL see the correlation, and reference it. That's just the way it goes on RF. It's relevant and there's no way around that fact.

 

[BobbyisStrange]

I'm shocked that someone who claims to be so familiar with the bible doesn't see the correlation between the OP and the story of Abraham and Isaac. It's so obvious that it's simply hard to believe.

But regardless - the vast majority of theists WILL see the correlation, and reference it. That's just the way it goes on RF. It's relevant and there's no way around that fact.

When did I say I didn’t see the correlation...I am saying it was present in my thought process of making this particular post...Nor is that biblical story relevant to a person’s answer, it is you who can’t grasp this concept, not me. Also I must now ask you to stop twisting my words to make them mean what you want.