For Parents: If God Told You To...

[helpmeplease]

Your defense of Adam is not based on the facts. In fact, Adam's sin was wilfull and he manifested no repentance for his wrongdoing. He fully knew the consequences of his sin, unlike Eve, who was deceived by Satan.(1 Timothy 2:14)

Neither Adam nor Eve had any knowledge right and wrong, if you have no knowledge of wrong you cannot commit wrong. I simply can't understand how the defenders of the genesis story don't get it.

Your also are wrong in saying God was responsible for Adam's sin. That is no more true than a law against murder being responsible for a murderer killing someone.

Of course he was responsible, he put the tree there, he put the snake there, he denied them the knowledge of right and wrong. :sorry1: but if you believe the story, then god is to blame.

Neither did God plan his Son's sacrifice "before he created anything at all."
Concerning Jehovah, Deuteronomy 32:4 states: "perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he." God will never act unjustly, and his providing the ransom did lay a legal basis to forgive sins. (Romans 3:22-26)

So at what time in this omniscient god's plan did he change his plan, because Adam and Eve allegedly did the wrong thing thus requiring the sacrifice of Jesus?

As to God's loving provision being "absurd", the words of 1 Corinthians 1:18 come to mind: "For the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is God's power."

Don't you get it that talking about love has absolutely nothing to do with love unless you actually demonstrate that love?

 

[Kathryn]

When did I say I didn’t see the correlation...I am saying it was present in my thought process of making this particular post...Nor is that biblical story relevant to a person’s answer, it is you who can’t grasp this concept, not me. Also I must now ask you to stop twisting my words to make them mean what you want.

Sorry, this isn't very clear to me.

When you formulated the OP, did the story of Abraham and Isaac come to your mind?

Also, at any point in the meanderings of this thread, did the correlation between your OP and the Abraham/Isaac story pop into your head?

 

[Sleeppy]

I do this all the time...not just with Genesis...I am failing to see your point how this is relevant to a question I asked...A question that was non biblical...Other people turned it Biblical...I never referenced Abraham...I never mentioned Jesus...I never mentioned a miraculous plan...It was simply about obedience...would you have obedience, to your God, to kill your child if IT (IT being God) asked you to...Now as far as repeating patterns in Genesis, would you like proof that I have done this? Do you want a list or something? Or do you just want to continue taking a “higher ground” and let people think you have some biblical authority…as if the world of biblical scholars are at a consensus of what all the texts mean…That there is no personal interpretation when it comes to biblical translations.

If you did your part, those questions weren't for you. It might be hard to have a chance at an accurate personal interpretation, if the texts have not even been looked over.

If it seems like I have a Biblical authority, it's because I do. Not over you or any other person here, obviously, but most definitely over myself. God gives that to me. You've noticed that I haven't exerted any interpretation over anyone, though I've done the reading and contemplating, whereas those who haven't done much of anything have come exerting theirs.

If I were in Abraham's place, I would have done the same.

 

[BobbyisStrange]

Sorry, this isn't very clear to me.

When you formulated the OP, did the story of Abraham and Isaac come to your mind?

Also, at any point in the meanderings of this thread, did the correlation between your OP and the Abraham/Isaac story pop into your head?

Now I get to repeat myself…At the time of posting this question I was not thinking of the story of Abraham and Isaac…I had just finished reading the passage in Ezekiel and then made the post…Just because that thought wasn’t in my head at the time doesn’t mean I don’t see the correlation between my post and the story after the fact…Correlation only means connection…Yes, I can see the connection…However this connection to the story has no bearing on personal preference to what a person would do or what they wouldn’t do in the same exact situation…If you want to use it as the example fine…Abraham did it and you wouldn’t…I think that makes you a more moral person that Abraham and God for that matter…But again, this story wasn’t in my head when I made the post…I am sorry that is so outer space for you to understand…you know for someone who claims to know the bible so well should understand that human sacrifice is spoke of more than just in Genesis, and one doesn’t have to reference the same story you think they are referencing because in the past a few people were speaking about a particular passage… then again I’ve watched you make knowledge claims in the past, so I’m not surprised.

 

[helpmeplease]

My God wouldn't come to me in the 21st century and command me to sacrifice my child

But you are quite happy to accept that he allegedly has asked for it before and more than that you are happy that such action was the epitome of your gods love and justice. You are quite happy to accept that despicable behaviour from your god and more importantly the person venerated by your beliefs.
As a parent, I am simply flabbergasted by other parents who believe this stuff.
The question is not "would your god ask?" it's "would you if he asked?" I wouldn't, even when I was a Catholic I wouldn't. What say you?

 

[Kathryn]

Now I get to repeat myself…At the time of posting this question I was not thinking of the story of Abraham and Isaac…I had just finished reading the passage in Ezekiel and then made the post…Just because that thought wasn’t in my head at the time doesn’t mean I don’t see the correlation between my post and the story after the fact…Correlation only means connection…Yes, I can see the connection…

Wow.

OK. Just to clarify - Christians and Jews and Muslims (as well as many other theists) will immediately see the connection. It shouldn't surprise you, or bother you.

However this connection to the story has no bearing on personal preference to what a person would do or what they wouldn’t do in the same exact situation…

It may not have any bearing to a non theist, but it certainly does to Jews, Muslims, and Christians who base their moral actions on their faith.

If you want to use it as the example fine…Abraham did it and you wouldn’t…

Abraham did it 6000 years ago in the Middle East immersed in a completely different culture and time, and I wouldn't do it in the 21st century, to be exact.

But again, this story wasn’t in my head when I made the post…I am sorry that is so outer space for you to understand…

It's not "outer space," but it is odd that it didn't come to your head till others pointed it out.

you know for someone who claims to know the bible so well should understand that human sacrifice is spoke of more than just in Genesis, and one doesn’t have to reference the same story you think they are referencing because in the past a few people were speaking about a particular passage…

Sorry - what's this rambling got to do with anything I said? I didn't say anything about human sacrifices being limited to the book of Genesis, nor did I imply such nonsense.

then again I’ve watched you make knowledge claims in the past, so I’m not surprised.

What? You must be confusing me with someone else.

 

[Kathryn]

But you are quite happy to accept that he allegedly has asked for it before and more than that you are happy that such action was the epitome of your gods love and justice. You are quite happy to accept that despicable behaviour from your god and more importantly the person venerated by your beliefs.
As a parent, I am simply flabbergasted by other parents who believe this stuff.
The question is not "would your god ask?" it's "would you if he asked?" I wouldn't, even when I was a Catholic I wouldn't. What say you?

First of all, you're making a lot of assumptions about my state of mind. There's a LOT of heavy stuff in the bible, especially the OT, that makes me think, makes me pray, makes me study - without necessarily making me "happy." That's your choice of words, not mine.

I will say this for the very last time, even though it was my first, and consistent, answer and seemed very clear to me.

If I heard a voice telling me to kill my child, I would not assume it was God. I would assume I needed medical help, and would make an appointment with a psychiatrist. I would not kill my child.

 

[Koldo]

Your defense of Adam is not based on the facts. In fact, Adam's sin was wilfull and he manifested no repentance for his wrongdoing. He fully knew the consequences of his sin, unlike Eve, who was deceived by Satan.(1 Timothy 2:14)
Your also are wrong in saying God was responsible for Adam's sin. That is no more true than a law against murder being responsible for a murderer killing someone.
Neither did God plan his Son's sacrifice "before he created anything at all."
Concerning Jehovah, Deuteronomy 32:4 states: "perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he." God will never act unjustly, and his providing the ransom did lay a legal basis to forgive sins. (Romans 3:22-26)
As to God's loving provision being "absurd", the words of 1 Corinthians 1:18 come to mind: "For the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is God's power."

​

​

Did Adam already have free will before eating the fruit?

 

[waitasec]

I think I'm swimming. If you have any comparisons that you trust, judge for yourself.

there is absolutely no way you can say this is factual

And I'm not surprised to see you say that. Though, I can tell you, (and i'm sure many others can as well) we are not all subjected to the same circumstances. As close as a pair of twins can be, there's proof in them.

actually if you would explain what you thought i said...

 

[BobbyisStrange]

Wow.

OK. Just to clarify - Christians and Jews and Muslims (as well as many other theists) will immediately see the connection. It shouldn't surprise you, or bother you.

It doesn’t bother me, you can reference it all you want - that doesn’t mean I was in making the post...myself and others have tried to explain multiple times that Abrahams actions where disgusting and wrong...regardless of the intentions of a God...Abraham did not know these intentions and was going to gut his child and burn him up for the Lord.

may not have any bearing to a non theist, but it certainly does to Jews, Muslims, and Christians who base their moral actions on their faith.

What you have shown me is a complete lack of faith...as you said you would not do it...which i think is a good thing.

Abraham did it 6000 years ago in the Middle East immersed in a completely different culture and time, and I wouldn't do it in the 21st century, to be exact.

good for you!!!

It's not "outer space," but it is odd that it didn't come to your head till others pointed it out.

irrelevant to the point.

Sorry - what's this rambling got to do with anything I said? I didn't say anything about human sacrifices being limited to the book of Genesis, nor did I imply such nonsense.

I quote you - "Don't be coy. You know the OP was indirectly referring to the Abraham/Isaac story, and so does everyone else." Therefore you are implying I must be like everyone else in where I got my idea to make this post.

What? You must be confusing me with someone else.

I am pretty sure it was you and I who had the long conversations a few pages back about knowledge claims dealing with Abraham and what he knew, didn’t know and he had or didn’t have at his disposal...if that wasn’t you i apologize.

 

[BobbyisStrange]

If I heard a voice telling me to kill my child, I would not assume it was God. I would assume I needed medical help, and would make an appointment with a psychiatrist. I would not kill my child.

:yes::clap:clap:clap:clap

 

[waitasec]

Kathryn,
this is in regards to what we were discussing yesterday...

there is one element we are not considering here...
when a parent tells their child to do something, it isn't a voice in their head

so there are 2 things we need to consider...
1. a parents request isn't taken on blind faith as the child knows their parents voice
2. a child learns a parents intentions by empirical evidence

abraham had neither.

 

[Kathryn]

What you have shown me is a complete lack of faith...as you said you would not do it...which i think is a good thing.

[/FONT][/COLOR]

No offense intended, but I don't have to prove my faith to you. I only answer to God on that one.

 

[Koldo]

If I heard a voice telling me to kill my child, I would not assume it was God. I would assume I needed medical help, and would make an appointment with a psychiatrist. I would not kill my child.

Out of curiosity, if you had lived through similar events that Abraham did on regards to God, and then God asked you to kill your child much like he did with Abraham, can you imagine yourself doing it?

If not, would it be because you wouldn't think of it as God?

 

[chinu]

I wonder why the believers can't honestly answer the question of the OP? If god told you to kill your child would you? Pretty simple question. My answer is I would not.

I wonder why non believers don't understand that our childrens are not our own property, its god property. Thus.. god may keep alive, or kill, we have nothing to do with this matter as we are not the owner. Its pretty much simple.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know about your dogs, but mine definitely think, and question - in their little doggy ways.

Much as we think and question in our little human ways.

My point was that a few pages back, when the subject was Abraham and Isaac, you suggested that they should go along with God's commands even if they see the outcome as bad or illogical from their perspective... like a dog should go along with being taken to the vet.

Now, it seems like you're saying that if you were confronted with God (or what appears to be God) commanding you to kill your child, because based on your knowledge and logic, God wouldn't ask you to kill you child.

What I'm saying is that if you're right about Abraham, then this applies to you, too: if you did find yourself in this position, it would suggest just as much that your reasoning was wrong.

You talked before about "maturity" of faith implying that the absolutist-seeming rules of the New Testament aren't necessarily binding once one has the maturity and insight to see the bigger picture. Well, who's to say that the next level of spiritual maturity entails that Jesus "once and for all" sacrifice isn't as absolute as *it* seems, and that sometimes, for reasons we don't understand (like, maybe, your dog when you have to take it in to deal with complications after surgery even though you told it that this was all over), it's still sometimes necessary to slaughter a few children like back in the old days.

So... that's why I still think you're still being inconsistent here.

Keep in mind that this is the same guy who actually went into the tent and told his 90 year old wife, "Let's make a baby!"

Meaning what? That he was a bit loopy?

If that's your explanation, I suppose it fits the facts, but it doesn't explain why Abraham is held up as a positive example.

 

[helpmeplease]

If I heard a voice telling me to kill my child, I would not assume it was God. I would assume I needed medical help, and would make an appointment with a psychiatrist. I would not kill my child.

Once again that was not the question. The OP did not ask about a voice in your head. It asked about your god asking you. What say you to the question?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wonder why non believers don't understand that our childrens are not our own property, its god property. Thus.. god may keep alive, or kill, we have nothing to do with this matter as we are not the owner. Its pretty much simple.

If you're killing someone, then you most definitely have something to do with it.

If the God of the Bible wanted one of his "pieces of property" dead, he would have no problem taking care of that himself.

 

[helpmeplease]

I wonder why non believers don't understand that our childrens are not our own property, its god property. Thus.. god may keep alive, or kill, we have nothing to do with this matter as we are not the owner. Its pretty much simple.

I wonder why anyone can think that anyone belongs to someone else?

 

[waitasec]

I wonder why non believers don't understand that our childrens are not our own property, its god property. Thus.. god may keep alive, or kill, we have nothing to do with this matter as we are not the owner. Its pretty much simple.

if god wants to destroy his own property fine...i just don't want to be a part of it.