For Parents: If God Told You To...

[Falvlun]

i think the point of the story is to disturb. i also think theists are disturbed by the story in a different manner from how atheists are disturbed by it.

it is good to ask what is disturbing about it. the idea of a murder? the idea of the murderer being the father and the victim his own child? the motivation for the murder? the willingness for the murderer to go along with god's command? what the story all means? all of the above?

What is disturbing is that Abraham was approaching the killing of his child no differently than any other adherent of a faith that practiced human sacrifice. He believed that God wanted a human sacrifice, and was willing to perform it, even upon his own kid.

 

[helpmeplease]

What is disturbing is that Abraham was approaching the killing of his child no differently than any other adherent of a faith that practiced human sacrifice. He believed that God wanted a human sacrifice, and was willing to perform it, even upon his own kid.

Actually what I find extremely disturbing is anybody today trying to justify the behaviour.

 

[Nooj]

The fact that Abraham did not know that God was going to intervene…He thought he was going to kill his son and he planned to do so…How is this not disturbing? That is the real question.

i didn't say it doesn't disturb me. it does disturb me. but it is the best kind of disturbing because it makes me think.

In that case you disagree with the theists who have posted.

i think i disagree with some of the theists here who think that what abraham did was a bad thing. i too think it was bad, outrageous even, according to any ethical system i'm aware of. but i think it was good in another sense...in the religious sense. i think abraham's faith is marvellous to think about, a wonder for the ages.

 

[Kathryn]

Out of curiosity, if you had lived through similar events that Abraham did on regards to God, and then God asked you to kill your child much like he did with Abraham, can you imagine yourself doing it?

If not, would it be because you wouldn't think of it as God?

Good questions, and thanks for your tone of discussion, by the way.

I would hope that I would have the faith of Abraham - which is exemplary in any circumstance, but ESPECIALLY considering the times in which he lived, and the strangeness of his experiences with God's communication to him, and his life events.

I don't know that I would have had the faith - or the responses - that Abraham had.

 

[Falvlun]

Actually what I find extremely disturbing is anybody today trying to justify the behaviour.

True, but I don't think they are actually paying attention to the human sacrifice part. They focus upon the "Well, it didn't happen because God is merciful" part. When I was religious, this was a common problem with how I viewed these sorts of stories. You ignore the horrific aspects (God drowning the entire world) and focus on the good parts (there's a rainbow!).

 

[BobbyisStrange]

i didn't say it doesn't disturb me. it does disturb me. but it is the best kind of disturbing because it makes me think.

Makes you think??? You just said if you were Abraham you would have done it too!!! This shows lack of thinking...Shows exactly the point of the story, people shouldn’t think and only act according to what God commands, no matter what he commands.

 

[BobbyisStrange]

True, but I don't think they are actually paying attention to the human sacrifice part. They focus upon the "Well, it didn't happen because God is merciful" part. When I was religious, this was a common problem with how I viewed these sorts of stories. You ignore the horrific aspects (God drowning the entire world) and focus on the good parts (there's a rainbow!).

Its the only way anyone can justify the blatant evil throughout the bible

 

[Falvlun]

Good questions, and thanks for your tone of discussion, by the way.

I would hope that I would have the faith of Abraham - which is exemplary in any circumstance, but ESPECIALLY considering the times in which he lived, and the strangeness of his experiences with God's communication to him, and his life events.

I don't know that I would have had the faith - or the responses - that Abraham had.

The problem is that this is precisely the sort of faith that causes people to do horrific actions. Faith, in and of itself, is not a good thing when it is able to cause good people to do bad things.

 

[Nooj]

True, but I don't think they are actually paying attention to the human sacrifice part. They focus upon the "Well, it didn't happen because God is merciful" part. When I was religious, this was a common problem with how I viewed these sorts of stories. You ignore the horrific aspects (God drowning the entire world) and focus on the good parts (there's a rainbow!).

yes it's fascinating how some people focus on the fact that god intervened and saved isaac from a horrible fate. for them, the end makes sense of everything that comes before. salvation seems to be the most important aspect for them. but others focus on the human characters. mostly abraham, but also isaac the victim. it is good to do this i think, because too much emphasis on the happy ending (so to speak) can overshadow the horrible beginning and middle, which i think are as important or even more important than the fact that isaac got saved.

 

[waitasec]

Good questions, and thanks for your tone of discussion, by the way.

I would hope that I would have the faith of Abraham - which is exemplary in any circumstance,

i beg to differ.


i don't see how blind faith is a virtue...
would you apply blind faith with a car sales man?

how about when you buy a home or what university to go to?
do you apply blind faith to commercials and take their word at face value?

 

[InChrist]

The fact that Abraham did not know that God was going to intervene…He thought he was going to kill his son and he planned to do so…How is this not disturbing? That is the real question.

[FONT=&quot]If you read beyond the account itself, including the previous chapters, it is clear that God had promised to keep His covenant with Abraham through his son Isaac. Abraham was well aware of this promise, so he knew that in one way or another God would intervene and that Isaac’s life would be preserved.[/FONT]

 

[Nooj]

Makes you think??? You just said if you were Abraham you would have done it too!!! This shows lack of thinking...

no...if i had the faith of abraham, i would have done it too. i would have raised the knife gladly.

if i was abraham though, i would not have. for the same reason that i wouldn't do it today. because i don't have faith. the first lesson that the story of abraham and isaac tells me and probably a lot of people is that i couldn't do what he did.

Shows exactly the point of the story, people shouldn’t think and only act according to what God commands, no matter what he commands.

maybe this is the point of the story. maybe it isn't. does it matter? i understand it a different way.

 

[Kathryn]

My point was that a few pages back, when the subject was Abraham and Isaac, you suggested that they should go along with God's commands even if they see the outcome as bad or illogical from their perspective... like a dog should go along with being taken to the vet.

What I was discussing with the dog analogy, is that we cannot see the fullness of the situation, or the outcome, as an omnipotent God can. For instance, Noah built a huge and apparently ridiculous ark in the bible story. Abraham obeyed God and cajoled his 90 year old wife into "trying to make a baby" (something she thought was absurd). Joshua walked around Jericho with an army blowing horns. All these seemingly ridiculous directives were obeyed out of faith - not because they made sense to the humans involved.

Now, it seems like you're saying that if you were confronted with God (or what appears to be God) commanding you to kill your child, because based on your knowledge and logic, God wouldn't ask you to kill you child.

We all operate within our societies, our place in history, with the knowledge and wisdom not only from our own experiences but with the cumulative knowledge and wisdom of countless humans before us - including Abraham, but also including Peter and James and John and Mary, etc, etc.

God has given us this wisdom and this wealth of knowledge. It's our job to use all the tools at our disposal to make good, sound choices.

I know that God did not allow Isaac to be sacrificed. I know that God sacrificed his own son in our stead so that no further sacrifice is needed. I do not believe that God would ask me to commit an act of murder, so if I suddenly "thought" God was telling me that, I'd go see a psychiatrist rather than believe, willy nilly, that it was truly God speaking to me.

You talked before about "maturity" of faith implying that the absolutist-seeming rules of the New Testament aren't necessarily binding once one has the maturity and insight to see the bigger picture.

Actually that's not wnat I said or implied, and I made great effort in numerous posts to clarify what I meant, so I'm not going to repeat myself again. Since your hypothesis about what I said is wrong, your conclusion on what I meant is wrong as well. Please review my previous posts for clarification if you're truly interested in what I am explaining.

Well, who's to say that the next level of spiritual maturity entails that Jesus "once and for all" sacrifice isn't as absolute as *it* seems, and that sometimes, for reasons we don't understand (like, maybe, your dog when you have to take it in to deal with complications after surgery even though you told it that this was all over), it's still sometimes necessary to slaughter a few children like back in the old days.

As a Christian, I believe that the OT prophesies about the once and eternal sacrifice of the Messiah have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ so no further sacrifice is necessary. And I see no reference to further blood sacrifices being necessary in the bible.

 

[helpmeplease]

[FONT=&quot]If you read beyond the account itself, including the previous chapters, it is clear that God had promised to keep His covenant with Abraham through his son Isaac. Abraham was well aware of this promise, so he knew that in one way or another God would intervene and that Isaac’s life would be preserved.[/FONT]

So Ole Abe was just pretending to obey god?

 

[Kathryn]

Once again that was not the question. The OP did not ask about a voice in your head. It asked about your god asking you. What say you to the question?

I say it's a ridiculous question as stated. About as ridiculous as "Can God create a rock that's too heavy for Him to pick up, " or "If you had a unicorn horn, would you shave it to a point?"

 

[waitasec]

[FONT=&quot]If you read beyond the account itself, including the previous chapters, it is clear that God had promised to keep His covenant with Abraham through his son Isaac. Abraham was well aware of this promise, so he knew that in one way or another God would intervene and that Isaac’s life would be preserved.[/FONT]

so then it wasn't an act of faith. is that what you mean?

 

[waitasec]

I say it's a ridiculous question as stated. About as ridiculous as "Can God create a rock that's too heavy for Him to pick up, " or "If you had a unicorn horn, would you shave it to a point?"

wait, does god speak to you or not?
i'm not talking about the bible.

 

[Nakosis]

The point isn't to judge Abraham. Rather, it is to put yourself into his position and think if you would do the same.

Realistically if you have lived Abraham 's life you would have likely done the same. it's only because you didn't that you can think you might have acted otherwise.

One can imagine otherwise understanding that reality we imagine is an impossible sequence of events. Kind of hard to make any meaningful value judgement on something that could only exist in our heads. If Abraham was me, he probably would have refused. So then no Jews, no Bible.

This doesn't make sense as God actually ask that of him.

Knowing regardless of Abraham's choice no sacrifice would have happened. God used the event/story to teach the trust that was being required. He made the tribes suffer in the desert for 40 years to make a point about idols. This seems consistent with the God of the OT to me.

Are you really using old texts to say what God ought not to do in the future? Isn't this like trying to bind God to what he said in the old testament on regards to dietary laws and circumcision?

I thought we were dealing with the OT. For Christians, Jesus provided a set of commandments. Christians believe these commandments supersede any commandments given in the OT.

IOW The lessons needed for the tribes were not the same lessons needed by the Christians.

But ok fair enough. I just confirmed your argument. :bow: However Christians are suppose to validate whatever the Holy Spirit or God asks of them according to the Bible. Since Jesus didn't ask for human sacrifice this should mean God would not make that requirement of them. So they should determine any request of that nature would not be coming from God.

 

[helpmeplease]

What I was discussing with the dog analogy, is that we cannot see the fullness of the situation, or the outcome, as an omnipotent God can.

Why oh why would an omnipotent god need to test any of his creations if he knows before he created anything what is in their "hearts"?

 

[Kathryn]

... in that case. God didn't step in to stop Jephthah from sacrificing his daughter; apparently, he's okay with human sacrifice at least some of the time.

But why wouldn't you sacrifice your child... or at least attempt to? If God really is just testing your obedience, can't you trust that he'd intervene like he did for Abraham?

God did not command Jephthah to sacrifice anyone, including his own daughter. This was Jephthah's own oath, and his own decision. And it was a bad one all the way around.