For Parents: If God Told You To...

[Nakosis]

Why oh why would an omnipotent god need to test any of his creations if he knows before he created anything what is in their "hearts"?

To use the event/story as a teaching tool for later generations.

So God knew the outcome. The human perception of the event being a test. However the event being necessary to change the direction humanity was heading.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Why indeed.

 

[Nooj]

So Ole Abe was just pretending to obey god?

abraham is promised by god that isaac will be the progenitor of his people and that his people will be like the stars in number. and isaac remember was a child hard-fought for. he really was a miracle child, seeing as how sarah was so old at that age.

and then god tells abraham to kill isaac, his loved son and hope. abraham does what god tells him. all the while, he believes in the promise. the promise that cannot come true if he does what god tells him. the paradox. and yet abraham keeps the two mutually incompatible things together in his head. for he trusts that god's promise will impossibly come true even as he raises that knife for the killing blow. and this is faith.

 

[Kathryn]

Actually, Judges 11:39 says that Jephtah did as he had vowed. And what he vowed to do with ( who ended being ) her was to offer her up as a burnt offering. So, he killed her. Why do you interpret it as something else?

God did not put that vow on Jephthah and He did not command that Jephthah sacrifice his daughter.

 

[Kathryn]

In that case you disagree with the theists who have posted.

Really? I don't disagree with what Nooj has posted at all. The story of Abraham and Isaac IS disturbing and unsettling and scary and tense and sad and heartbreaking.

 

[helpmeplease]

To use the event/story as a teaching tool for later generations.

So God knew the outcome. The human perception of the event being a test. However the event being necessary to change the direction humanity was heading.

In my opinion just justification for a story that is beyond disgusting.

 

[Kathryn]

What is disturbing is that Abraham was approaching the killing of his child no differently than any other adherent of a faith that practiced human sacrifice. He believed that God wanted a human sacrifice, and was willing to perform it, even upon his own kid.

Do you understand that human sacrifice was VERY common back in that time, among all sorts of societies?

Have you seen the miniseries "The Tudors?" Political leaders regularly had people tortured, maimed, castrated, burned, body parts cut off, hung but not killed, drawn and quartered, etc. and big crowds of people watched and cheered and threw a party every time.

It seems strange and bizarre and cruel to us now, but had we lived back in that time, we might well have been part of the cheering crowd -and then gone home to a nice meal of mutton afterwards, looking forward to the next big street party.

 

[Kathryn]

True, but I don't think they are actually paying attention to the human sacrifice part. They focus upon the "Well, it didn't happen because God is merciful" part. When I was religious, this was a common problem with how I viewed these sorts of stories. You ignore the horrific aspects (God drowning the entire world) and focus on the good parts (there's a rainbow!).

Human sacrifice was a very common concept and practice at that time. Frankly, it didn't carry the stigma that it carries now. It simply wasn't a shocking idea.

 

[Nakosis]

wait, does god speak to you or not?
i'm not talking about the bible.

"Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice that he might instruct thee." (Deuteronomy 4:36)

Not to answer for anyone but don't act surprised if the answer is yes.

Jesus said he will send a councilor. Pentecostals communicate with God all the time.

Seems a common belief among Christians that they communicate with God or at least through a divine messenger.

 

[helpmeplease]

Really? I don't disagree with what Nooj has posted at all. The story of Abraham and Isaac IS disturbing and unsettling and scary and tense and sad and heartbreaking.

So would you kill your child if god told you too, not a voice in your head, but god actually coming to you, as he apparently did to Abe on many occasions? Would you kill your child on the absolute direct orders of the god you believe in. No equivocations, just a yes or no?

 

[Kathryn]

i beg to differ.


i don't see how blind faith is a virtue...
would you apply blind faith with a car sales man?

how about when you buy a home or what university to go to?
do you apply blind faith to commercials and take their word at face value?

You keep adding the word "blind" to faith. Notice please that I am not doing that.

And to further answer your questions - I know that God is not a used car salesman, a realtor, or a guy selling Slap Chops.

 

[BobbyisStrange]

In my opinion just justification for a story that is beyond disgusting.

That is all it is.

 

[Kathryn]

[FONT=&quot]If you read beyond the account itself, including the previous chapters, it is clear that God had promised to keep His covenant with Abraham through his son Isaac. Abraham was well aware of this promise, so he knew that in one way or another God would intervene and that Isaac’s life would be preserved.[/FONT]

Excellent point, but please note that many commenting on this thread are absolutely oblivious to a concept called "historical context."

 

[Nakosis]

In my opinion just justification for a story that is beyond disgusting.

Well yeah you are looking at it from a modern sense of morals. If you had lived the life of Abraham no doubt you'd have a different view.

 

[Nooj]

when we say blind faith, what is faith blind to?

 

[helpmeplease]

Excellent point, but please note that many commenting on this thread are absolutely oblivious to a concept called "historical context."

There is NO historical context to being willing to kill your child.

 

[Koldo]

Realistically if you have lived Abraham 's life you would have likely done the same. it's only because you didn't that you can think you might have acted otherwise.

One can imagine otherwise understanding that reality we imagine is an impossible sequence of events. Kind of hard to make any meaningful value judgement on something that could only exist in our heads. If Abraham was me, he probably would have refused. So then no Jews, no Bible.

Perhaps. It wouldn't really be 'me' either way. Or at very least, a very different 'me'.

Knowing regardless of Abraham's choice no sacrifice would have happened. God used the event/story to teach the trust that was being required. He made the tribes suffer in the desert for 40 years to make a point about idols. This seems consistent with the God of the OT to me.

The point is that Abraham didn't really know what was going to happen until the very last moment.

I thought we were dealing with the OT. For Christians, Jesus provided a set of commandments. Christians believe these commandments supersede any commandments given in the OT.

IOW The lessons needed for the tribes were not the same lessons needed by the Christians.

But ok fair enough. I just confirmed your argument. :bow: However Christians are suppose to validate whatever the Holy Spirit or God asks of them according to the Bible. Since Jesus didn't ask for human sacrifice this should mean God would not make that requirement of them. So they should determine any request of that nature would not be coming from God.

Isn't the nature of God regarded as unchanging by christians though?
Which means if he has done it once, he might as well to do it twice just to test someone's faith.

 

[waitasec]

This question is aimed at theists...If your God came to you and commanded that you sacrifice your child to him/her/it or them, would you do it?

If I heard a voice telling me to kill my child, I would not assume it was God. I would assume I needed medical help, and would make an appointment with a psychiatrist. I would not kill my child.

Bobby,
i think what we can conclude here is...

any person who is of sound mind, theist or non theist, determine what is right or wrong by using their moral compass, not by some arbitrary ideas of what it is to be moral.


i'm off to yosemite now...

see you in a few days

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

:beach:

 

[helpmeplease]

when we say blind faith, what is faith blind to?

Actual LOVE. Not the pretend stuff in holy books?