For Those Who Believe in the Story of Lucifer

[DarkSun]

Armegeddon is a PLACE, not an Happening, the only people who are "Anointed Class"

are Egyptan royalty, Satan Appearence is more Metahporical. The Serpant in the garden is Not satan, infact if you read the book of Enoch, satan makes no appearance, infact the only evil angel that appears is "Azazel".

Read the book of enoch.

Do you think that Satan may really only be a metaphor or a motif for the evil that can exist in people?

 

[herushura]

Do you think that Satan may really only be a metaphor or a motif for the evil that can exist in people?

Yes, like above picture, "good and evil - god and devil" are inside the mind, out thinking mind, in which we act upon.

 

[stephensinclair1]

i am afraid you are missing the point. Everything is possible. As it is, by definition "impossible" for us to exist (other than by God`s will), we cannot actually exist. As this is obviously the case (under physical laws), we must therefore exist under other constraints governed not by our perception of reality, but rather under the auspices of "real" reality (beyond our understanding[obviously]). As this is the case, we cannot hope to understand the massive complexities inherent within our sphere of existance (so why try?). To this end, we as humans, choose to believe in a higher intelligence. this no doubt exists (or we would all be gods who create our own existance), but the question remains...........do we even understand what we believe in? Of course not. How could we? We take it on faith. We believe what other humans tell us. This is flawed and open to misinterpretation (at best) and manipulation (re the "Roman" version of God`s word). Is it really possible for us to commune with a power so far beyond our comprehension?

As a young man, I had the opportunity to discuss Stars with my father (dearly missed to this day). He was a very intelligent man, but he was indoctrinated by his religion to such an extent that he could not accept that the stars we see in the sky above are actually balls of nuclear energy, much like our own Sun (Son?), which is a mere 90 million miles from our own home (approx. 186 thousand miles per second over 8 minutes). He was "told" that the lights in the sky were merely that. Who would refute that the "lights" are in fact nuclear reactors emitting radiation through space? Why are they there? How did they come to be?

Our universe is immense. We cannot really comprehend how vast an expanse we are encompassed by, but the evidence impels us to accept that we exist in a clearly (if not fully understood) physically defined plane of being.

I pose the question (whilst fully accepting that we do in fact exist), how can we be here? Why are we not the centre of the Universe as God`s chosen?

Further.....if we exist.....where did we come from?

If God created us.......where did he/she/it come from?

Why did he/she/it bother to create us? If this being is omnipotent/omnipresent why would it waste it`s time with us? We can`t even exist without being "evil". We could never teach this being (or group of beings) anything. If we could, then it would not be a "God" as we choose to understand it.

If God created us for any purpose it reveals a weakness.......love, companionship, pursuit of understanding, boredom.

As postulated at the opening of this diatribe, "everything is possible". I say this secure in the belief that if we exist then some form of higher being exists. If that higher being exists then an even higher being must exist, and so on ad infinitum.

I do not state this to offend any group or individual. I merely wish to point out that as we clearly do exist, then higher beings must exist also................but where did it all begin?

For those who say that God has always existed.............that bears out my original hypothesis that everything is possible, because it is clearly impossible for our existance to have no beginning (therefore nothing is impossible).

We do exist in this plane.In what plane of existance is it possible for something to come from nothing?

I look forward to responses.

 

[lockyfan]

I know satan is a real being and part of his mission is to make sure that there are people who dont know who he is. These people he can lure into a trap that they will not be able to gt out of

God is also a real being. How else could all this have been created? the universe I mean

 

[herushura]

I know satan is a real being and part of his mission is to make sure that there are people who dont know who he is. These people he can lure into a trap that they will not be able to gt out of

God is also a real being. How else could all this have been created? the universe I mean

Gods brother, satan has alway quarrels with him, even when they were
called Enki and Enlil. Enlil=Ellil=Ellilah=allah=elohim=el=helios aka GOD
enki=ea=setan=siton=dagon=dragon=chronos=Saturn=Po'siedon aka Satan

 

[lockyfan]

Ummm thats a new one Gods brother hmmm

Youve knocked me for a loop there, havent come across this before.

ummmmmm let me see, There is one true God, he is the Alpha (First) and the Omega (last) before him there was no other and there will be none after him

He has been around since Time Indefinate

He created everything else

So he can not literally be Satans brother

satanv can be his creation and a fellow spirit creature, but not his brother

 

[Riverwolf]

And Jehovah is a mistranslation of the tetragrammaton. It's simply YHVH, which is forbidden to pronounce.

Its actually YHWH. Also why is it forbidden to say Gods name? who told you this? I know from the bible itself that I am supposed to use the name Jehovah because it is a marker of those who worship him

As far as I know, there's no equivalent to "W" in Hebrew; it's "V", hence "YHVH" instead of "YHWH". (Not to mention, the letter "W" didn't exist in the original Latin alphabet)

It's one of the commandments of "thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain" that led to the common belief among Jews that the name of God is not to be pronounced except in the Temple. Now there are many interpretations of that, all of them equally valid.

Most bibles completely remove the name Jehovah or use LORD and there is often a Preface to their bible saying so

So I know from that myself that the KJV is not quite right, because it has removed the name of God and then replaced it with something else in most places, but it still remains there in certain texts, but not as often as it should. Thus they are actually changing the scripture and thus doing the opposite of Revelation 22:18 I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll;

How I read that passage is that it was only referring to Revelations alone and no other piece of Scripture.

Besides, I don't think God would care about the tiny details in the various Bible translations, so long as people follow the golden rule: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' " (Luke 10:27 NIV)

 

[EtuMalku]

And Jehovah is a mistranslation of the tetragrammaton. It's simply YHVH, which is forbidden to pronounce.

Its actually YHWH. Also why is it forbidden to say Gods name? who told you this? I know from the bible itself that I am supposed to use the name Jehovah because it is a marker of those who worship him

It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service. Matthew 4:10
You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth
Psalm 83:18
I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.” John 17:6

Most bibles completely remove the name Jehovah or use LORD and there is often a Preface to their bible saying so

So I know from that myself that the KJV is not quite right, because it has removed the name of God and then replaced it with something else in most places, but it still remains there in certain texts, but not as often as it should. Thus they are actually changing the scripture and thus doing the opposite of Revelation 22:18 I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll;

In answer to your inquiry of Yeshua's name

At the heart of all the lost traditions was the teaching of the power of the WORD.
Every society, tradition and religion used the secret arts of sound, music and words to teach, heal and enlighten.

The ancient God names are specific signals that can be used to call upon aspects of the one divine force throughout the Universe. They represent manifestations of the divine within our Universe.

The oldest of these traditions is the Kemetic religion of ancient Egypt.
It has always taught that to know someone's name is to have power over them.

A well known story is one about Aset (Isis) who learns the true name of Amon and thus has power over Him and uses Heka to retrieve her husband Wesir (Osiris) from the Underworld. (allegory for Spiritual Rebirth?)

It is also known that the Universe and everything in it was begun with 'The Divine Utterance' 'The Word' which I see as the Primordial Vibration from which everything was put into motion by.

In Hindu cosmology, the name of a thing is actually a vital key to understanding its inner nature.

To quote from Sufi Hazrat Inyat Khan:
"There is a great secret hidden in name . . . All mystery is hidden in name . . . the meaning of name plays an important part in man's life, and the sound, the vowels, the rhythm, number of the letters which compose it, the mystical numbers, symbol and planet, as well as the root from which it is derived, all disclose their secret."

 

[Riverwolf]

In answer to your inquiry of Yeshua's name

At the heart of all the lost traditions was the teaching of the power of the WORD.
Every society, tradition and religion used the secret arts of sound, music and words to teach, heal and enlighten.

The ancient God names are specific signals that can be used to call upon aspects of the one divine force throughout the Universe. They represent manifestations of the divine within our Universe.

The oldest of these traditions is the Kemetic religion of ancient Egypt.
It has always taught that to know someone's name is to have power over them.

A well known story is one about Aset (Isis) who learns the true name of Amon and thus has power over Him and uses Heka to retrieve her husband Wesir (Osiris) from the Underworld. (allegory for Spiritual Rebirth?)

It is also known that the Universe and everything in it was begun with 'The Divine Utterance' 'The Word' which I see as the Primordial Vibration from which everything was put into motion by.

In Hindu cosmology, the name of a thing is actually a vital key to understanding its inner nature.

To quote from Sufi Hazrat Inyat Khan:
"There is a great secret hidden in name . . . All mystery is hidden in name . . . the meaning of name plays an important part in man's life, and the sound, the vowels, the rhythm, number of the letters which compose it, the mystical numbers, symbol and planet, as well as the root from which it is derived, all disclose their secret."

To add to this, in Hinduism, it is believed this Word is: OM.

"I will give you teh Word all the scriptures glorify, all spiritual disciples express, to attain which aspirants lead a life of sense-restraint and self-naughting. (I think "self-naughting" is supposed to mean having nothing) It is OM. This symbol of the Godhead is the highest. Realizing it one finds complete fulfillment of all one's longings. It is of the greatest support to all seekers. When OM reverberates unceasingly within the heart, that one is indeed blessed and deeply loved as one who is the Self." (Katha Upanishad 1:15-17)

 

[EtuMalku]

To add to that the word Amen, is Amon the first God of Egyptian religion that created himself with a Divine Utterance.

 

[Riverwolf]

To add to that the word Amen, is Amon the first God of Egyptian religion that created himself with a Divine Utterance.

Actually, "amen" is Hebrew for "may it be so"...

So I guess you're right.

 

[McBell]

Um...
Would someone be so kind as to present the verses that state that this entity ya'll are referring to as "Lucifer" and or "Satan" is actually named as such?

Seems to me that both 'lucifer' and 'satan' are merely titles, like the title 'christ'.

 

[lockyfan]

It's one of the commandments of "thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain" that led to the common belief among Jews that the name of God is not to be pronounced except in the Temple. Now there are many interpretations of that, all of them equally valid.


I take that dont take the Lords name in vain thing as being when you may say it as "Oh my God" when you are actually using it in vain and using it as a swear word. example. "oh my god what happened there!!" the exclamation many say.

Gods people use His name not all the time, but still use His name.


How I read that passage is that it was only referring to Revelations alone and no other piece of Scripture.

If it refers to one scripture, apply it to all, as the bible is one whole piece of writing and is for our benefit. If you change it then the whole point is missed.

2Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.




Besides, I don't think God would care about the tiny details in the various Bible translations, so long as people follow the golden rule: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' " (Luke 10:27 NIV)

Yeah but we also need to be doing the following as well

matthew 24:14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

that is mans mission right now, but to preach the good news, you need to know Gods name and use it

there is more to the bible than just that Golden rule.

1 Timothy 2:1-4
I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men, concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness. This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth

God wants us to come to an Accurate knowledge of the truth, so clearly he does care what happens to the texts as they are translated, because one little inaccuracy could change the meaning of that scripture and therefore stumble someone so that they will not become accurately knowledgable of the deep things of God

The Lords prayer, "hallowed" means it to be Holy it needs to b sancitfied, so that people know and use his name. He wants you to use his name

Exodus 3:13-15 Nevertheless, Moses said to the [true] God: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of YOUR forefathers has sent me to YOU,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’” Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.

We should be using God's name whether it be the Tetragrammaton, Yeweh, Jehovah or even the shortened version mention through the bible as Jah, you should still use Jehovahs name.

 

[Katzpur]

For those who believe this story, how do you reconcile the idea of an angel, a being without free will, choosing to not do God's will? I'm honestly curious. This isn't supposed to be some kind of back-handed insult.

How about you start by explaining why you don't believe angels have free will. If Michael and his angels fought against Lucifer and his angels, it seems obvious to me that they chose sides. This would only be possible if they had free will.

 

[McBell]

How about you start by explaining why you don't believe angels have free will. If Michael and his angels fought against Lucifer and his angels, it seems obvious to me that they chose sides. This would only be possible if they had free will.

Please see post #3

 

[Riverwolf]

It's one of the commandments of "thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain" that led to the common belief among Jews that the name of God is not to be pronounced except in the Temple. Now there are many interpretations of that, all of them equally valid.


I take that dont take the Lords name in vain thing as being when you may say it as "Oh my God" when you are actually using it in vain and using it as a swear word. example. "oh my god what happened there!!" the exclamation many say.

Gods people use His name not all the time, but still use His name.

Well, alright. ^_^

How I read that passage is that it was only referring to Revelations alone and no other piece of Scripture.

If it refers to one scripture, apply it to all, as the bible is one whole piece of writing and is for our benefit. If you change it then the whole point is missed.

2Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

And I feel that Paul here was only referring Timothy to the Jewish Tanakh, and not anything from the NT, certainly not his own letters.

Besides, I don't think God would care about the tiny details in the various Bible translations, so long as people follow the golden rule: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' " (Luke 10:27 NIV)

Yeah but we also need to be doing the following as well

matthew 24:14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

that is mans mission right now, but to preach the good news, you need to know Gods name and use it

there is more to the bible than just that Golden rule.

1 Timothy 2:1-4
I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men, concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness. This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth

God wants us to come to an Accurate knowledge of the truth, so clearly he does care what happens to the texts as they are translated, because one little inaccuracy could change the meaning of that scripture and therefore stumble someone so that they will not become accurately knowledgable of the deep things of God

Except it was Paul who said that, not God.

I think Paul would be the first to say his letters contain his own words and not God's

The Lords prayer, "hallowed" means it to be Holy it needs to b sancitfied, so that people know and use his name. He wants you to use his name

Exodus 3:13-15 Nevertheless, Moses said to the [true] God: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of YOUR forefathers has sent me to YOU,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’” Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.

We should be using God's name whether it be the Tetragrammaton, Yeweh, Jehovah or even the shortened version mention through the bible as Jah, you should still use Jehovahs name.

Well if you feel you have to, I won't stop you.

 

[lockyfan]

Please see post #3

i read post 3.

The thing is, Satan, who is Lucifer, wasnt upset that humans had free will. What he wanted most was to be all powerful like God, he used his free will to corrupt the first human couple who were perfect until they sinned. Sin=imperfection Sin=death

 

[McBell]

i read post 3.

The thing is, Satan, who is Lucifer, wasnt upset that humans had free will. What he wanted most was to be all powerful like God, he used his free will to corrupt the first human couple who were perfect until they sinned. Sin=imperfection Sin=death

First, my post was in reply to KATZPUR, not you.
Second, I see nothing in the Bible that indicates that the words 'lucifer', 'satan', and 'christ' are anything other than titles.
Third, I cannot help but wonder how you completely missed post #132 and instead reply to post #135 which has absolutely nothing to do with you.

 

[lockyfan]

Sorry i did miss that 132. Satan as a name exists in many scriptures.
Job 1:6-12 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.

7 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? Have not you yourself put up a hedge about him and about his house and about everything that he has all around? The work of his hands you have blessed, and his livestock itself has spread abroad in the earth. But, for a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch everything he has [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.” Accordingly Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!” So Satan went out away from the person of Jehovah.


Matthew 4:8-11
Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” Then the Devil left him, and, look! angels came and began to minister to him.


Those are just a couple of the scriptures where satan is called that by name


It is the name given to him AFTER he caused Adam and Eve to sin. The bible never actually gives us his name before he turned away from God

 

[adimus]

Um...
Would someone be so kind as to present the verses that state that this entity ya'll are referring to as "Lucifer" and or "Satan" is actually named as such?

Seems to me that both 'lucifer' and 'satan' are merely titles, like the title 'christ'.

Long story short, Lucifer is a Christian myth coming from mistranslations and creative interpretations of the Bible. But as dubious as the myth's origins are, it seems to jive with the more clear passages of scripture quite a bit. Be "seems" is the key word. There is not much doctrine about Satan in the Bible, contrary to popular theology. It is not explained exactly where he comes from, why he is the way he is depicted to be, or what he really is. The Bible does say that he is an angel, albeit a "fallen" or malevolent angel. He is not another god over evil. He is not a rival to God. He is not eternal. He is not a man either. He is a being that is created and has taken a dark, malevolent path against the one God would have us to walk. He has an agenda to deceive all from the truth about God. Etc, etc.

But the whole story about the fall the Lucifer and the other bad angels is pure myth. You can assume and guess that something like that probably happened. But whatever really happened, it must not be that relevant to man's relationship with God or it would be explored more in the Bible.