For Those Who Believe in the Story of Lucifer

[herushura]

Moon and above is Lucifer the morning STAR.
APOD: September 3, 1999 - Venus Falls Out of the Evening Sky

Lucifer will only make sense once astrology is applied

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

For those who believe this story, how do you reconcile the idea of an angel, a being without free will, choosing to not do God's will? I'm honestly curious. This isn't supposed to be some kind of back-handed insult.

in Islam Lucifer(Iblis or Satan) is not an angel, he is a Jinni, and he has a free will.

Qura'an Ch.18
[50] Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": they bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? and they are enemies to you! evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!

in addition they are different :angels are created from light but Jinns are created from fire.

Qura'an Ch.55
[15] And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke

 

[lockyfan]

in Islam Lucifer(Iblis or Satan) is not an angel, he is a Jinni, and he has a free will.

Qura'an Ch.18
[50] Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": they bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? and they are enemies to you! evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!

in addition they are different :angels are created from light but Jinns are created from fire.

Qura'an Ch.55
[15] And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke

In the bible satan was an angel but becomes the very being that causes others to turn away from Jehovah

from Adam and Eve sinning in the Garden of Eden, to the angels that took on human form and bred with the females of Noahs day. He caused Sin to enter mankinds race and Demons to come into being

His destruction is told i the final chapters of revelation

 

[EtuMalku]

I am seeing where Mestemia is going . . . I think?

The word Lucifer is found in only one place in the Bible -- Isaiah 14:12 -- but only in the King James and related versions: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! . . ." The New Revised Standard Version translates the same passage as "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, Son of Dawn!" In other translations we find: "O shining star of the dawn!" (Moffatt) or "O morning-star, son of the dawn!" (Hebrew Bible). The King James Version is based on the Vulgate, the Latin translation of Jerome. Jerome translated the Hebrew helel (bright or brilliant one) as "Lucifer," which was a reasonable Latin equivalent. And yet it is this Lucifer, the bright one or lightbearer, that came to be understood by so many as the name for Satan, Lord of Darkness.

Lucifer is not an Adversary as the word Satan (Shaiten) describes
Lucifer is the 'Bringer of Light' in other words Lux Lucis (Lucifer) is gnosis, truth and Divine knowledge.
Lucifer makes His debut in the Testaments as the Serpent in the Garden of Eden pointing out to Eve that God is a liar and you will not die if you eat of the fruit of knowledge, which she did and did not die.
Lucifer brought us the Truth and our Free Will, shows us the way to either be One with God or to be a God ourselves

Satan is a personification of the Judaic word al-satan (who borrowed it from the Persians' Shaiten) meaning adversary. The word is used more as a descriptive noun or pronoun. A fallen tree preventing a husband from getting to his injured wife would be considered a tree of shaiten, more or less.
Shaiten did not become Satan until much later where Jewish sects / tribes such as the Essenes began referring to anyone not an Essene as a Shaiten. Still further the Roman Christian church decided it was time to personify shaiten into Satan and have Him become the scapegoat for all evil in the Christian world.


Lucifer est lux lucis

Lucifer is the god of progress and intellectual inquiry, not only the divine inspiration behind the spiritual enlightenment of the Gnostic and the heretic and the lover of God in all his/her forms.
Through Lucifer's spirit humanity first climbed down from the trees and has represented the flow of progress ever since.

But Lucifer may be more than a metaphor for rebellion, enlightenment and advancement - as the pure creative and motive light, Lucifer may actually be the key to life itself . . .

The DNA within the nuclei of all cells of living creatures contains biophotons or ultra-weak proton emissions - in other words, light!
A dynamic web of light constantly released and absorbed by the DNA connects cells, tissues and organs and serve as the organism's main communication network.

Lucifer is on the move inside you and me, chattering between cell and cell, rousing the cohorts of the life-force, keeping us alive and wonderful. Every man and woman is a star - and now we know we have our own inner light.

 

[adimus]

Mixing the intended meaning of Bible verses with Aleister Crowley and other mystical sources is not at all what the authors of the Bible intended. To the contrary. Such things are clearly condemned all through the Bible.

That would be like using Adolf Hitler to interpret the writings of Paul. :run: Let's be reasonable here. I understand that you have deeply held beliefs. But please understand that one can't fairly use modern mystics to interpret ancient Jewish writings in the Bible ans yet still be in agreement with the original author's intent at all.

 

[Riverwolf]

Moon and above is Lucifer the morning STAR.
APOD: September 3, 1999 - Venus Falls Out of the Evening Sky

Lucifer will only make sense once astrology is applied

Is there something wrong with using the name of a star in as the name of a character?

"Venus" is our name for the planet; does that mean we cannot use the name in conjunction with the goddess who originally bore that name?

 

[Ozzie]

For those who believe this story, how do you reconcile the idea of an angel, a being without free will, choosing to not do God's will? I'm honestly curious. This isn't supposed to be some kind of back-handed insult.

Lucifer is an aspect of God.

 

[EtuMalku]

Mixing the intended meaning of Bible verses with Aleister Crowley and other mystical sources is not at all what the authors of the Bible intended. To the contrary. Such things are clearly condemned all through the Bible.

That would be like using Adolf Hitler to interpret the writings of Paul. :run: Let's be reasonable here. I understand that you have deeply held beliefs. But please understand that one can't fairly use modern mystics to interpret ancient Jewish writings in the Bible ans yet still be in agreement with the original author's intent at all.

I assume you are speaking to me?
Most of what I posted was paraphrased from books by Harvard Professor Elaine Pagels
Your comparison of Crowley and Hitler is mind numbing . . . now did you arrive at that?
So, we are to discuss this by only using what is found in the King James version of the Old & New Testaments? Yeah, that's not one sided.

 

[adimus]

I assume you are speaking to me?
Most of what I posted was paraphrased from books by Harvard Professor Elaine Pagels
Your comparison of Crowley and Hitler is mind numbing . . . now did you arrive at that?
So, we are to discuss this by only using what is found in the King James version of the Old & New Testaments? Yeah, that's not one sided.

It was to you, yes. You posted a direct quote from Crowley: Every man and woman is a star. Hitler is diametrically opposite of Paul. That was my only point. Nazis do use Hitler's ideology to interpret the Bible. It was a big problem in German theology at the time. The same can be said of how you are using mystical writings to bring understanding to the Bible. Many of those ideas are drawn out of interpretations of the Bible, to be sure. And we live in a free country, or at least we can freely post our thoughts on the internet without breaking the law. So I am not saying that people can't freely share thoughts and opinions. I am saying that if your interpretations of the Bible are squarely opposed to the plain and obvious text of the Bible, they are not sound and valid interpretations of the Biblical text any more than Hitler's teaching of the "Jew hating Jesus" that Hitler himself claimed to have come to finish in the work of via the Final Solution.

And for the record. I am not a big fan of the KJV in particular. There are much better translations to work with today than there were in 1611.

 

[EtuMalku]

Very well explained, I understand.

A problem lies with 'the' Bible and its

plain and obvious text of the Bible

it is a book of allegories written by 'Apostles'. Another problem lies with how Christians see

valid interpretations of the Biblical text

.

 

[adimus]

Very well explained, I understand.

A problem lies with 'the' Bible and its it is a book of allegories written by 'Apostles'. Another problem lies with how Christians see .

Not so fast there.


Lev 19:26 “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes. verse 31 “Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

Deut 18:9-12. “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, 12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

These are a sampling of the redundant condemnation of mysticism all through the Bible. No author of scripture would venture to endorse anything associated with mysticism of any kind.

 

[EtuMalku]

For condemning magic and Occult this book does a good job of using it.

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]In Genesis 44:5, Joseph's household manager refers to a silver drinking cup "...in which my lord drinketh and whereby indeed he devineth". Later, Joseph accuses his brothers of stealing the cup, saying "that such a man as I can certainly divine [the identity of the thieves]". These passages show that Joseph engaged in scrying. This is an ancient occultic method of divination in which a cup or other vessel is filled with water and gazed into. This technique of foretelling the future was used by Nostradamus and is still used today.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Numbers 5:12-31 describes a ritual of black magic that the Priest would perform on a woman if her husband suspected that she he had committed adultery. Verse 17 says: "Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.." She and her husband would go, with an offering of barley meal, to the tabernacle. The priest would make a magical drink consisting of holy water and sweepings from the tabernacle floor. He would have the woman drink the water while he recited a curse on her. The curse would state that her abdomen would swell and her thigh waste away if she had committed adultery. Otherwise, the curse would have no effect. If she were pregnant at this time, the curse would certainly induce an abortion. Yet nobody seems to have been concerned about the fate of any embryo or fetus that was present. There was no similar magical test that a woman could require her husband to take if she suspected him of adultery.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The Urim and Thummim were two objects mentioned in Numbers 27:21 and 1 Samuel 28:6 of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were apparently devices (perhaps in the form of flat stones) that the high priest consulted to determine the will of God. They might have worked something like a pair of dice.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Elisha was on his way to Bethel. Some small boys came out of the city and made fun of him because of his lack of hair; they called him "baldy". In a violent display of the power of black magic, Elisha cursed the children in the name of God. Two bears, apparently prompted by God, came out of the forest and tore 42 of the boys to shreds. The implication is that the children were all murdered. See 2 Kings 2:23-24.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Lots -- pieces of wood or stone with markings -- were used to determine the will of God. They were similar to dice. See: Numbers 26:55; Proverbs 16:33 Proverbs 18:18. [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Daniel, the prophet, was employed for many years in Babylon as the chief occultist to the king. He was supervisor "of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers". See Daniel 5:11.[/FONT]

 

[adimus]

For condemning magic and Occult this book does a good job of using it.

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]In Genesis 44:5, Joseph's household manager refers to a silver drinking cup "...in which my lord drinketh and whereby indeed he devineth". Later, Joseph accuses his brothers of stealing the cup, saying "that such a man as I can certainly divine [the identity of the thieves]". These passages show that Joseph engaged in scrying. This is an ancient occultic method of divination in which a cup or other vessel is filled with water and gazed into. This technique of foretelling the future was used by Nostradamus and is still used today.[/FONT]

OK. Apologetics mode.

The laws of the Torah (Exodus - Deuteronomy) can not be applied directly to anyone who was around before they were written. Joseph was around long before the Torah's laws ever were. That would be like applying the US Constitution to the 13 colonies and England before the first US Independance Day.

Second. The text does not record that Joseph practiced anything at all with the cup. Joseph very well may have lied and used his position as Pharaoh, a position which was well known to rely on magic, to scare his brothers into playing into his hand. That is quite likely the case since Joseph needed no magic to recognize his own brothers or to discern their true intentions.

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Numbers 5:12-31 describes a ritual of black magic that the Priest would perform on a woman if her husband suspected that she he had committed adultery. Verse 17 says: "Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.." She and her husband would go, with an offering of barley meal, to the tabernacle. The priest would make a magical drink consisting of holy water and sweepings from the tabernacle floor. He would have the woman drink the water while he recited a curse on her. The curse would state that her abdomen would swell and her thigh waste away if she had committed adultery. Otherwise, the curse would have no effect. If she were pregnant at this time, the curse would certainly induce an abortion. Yet nobody seems to have been concerned about the fate of any embryo or fetus that was present. There was no similar magical test that a woman could require her husband to take if she suspected him of adultery.[/FONT]

Prayer, sacrifices, the Urim and Thumim (similar to dice, scholars suspect) and other things could be called magic exept they were an act of seeking God- which by Biblical default is not magic. These things would only respond to God's direct intervention as far as the Biblical record tells us.

The adultery test was not "magical" because it was God involved and not a foreign deity or deities. There is no record that this test was ever even done either, both in the Bible or Jewish tradition. It was likely only used as a scare tactic to get the truth first. There are plenty of other laws about the Biblical justice system that would be utilized first before the water test ( a last resort). No innocent woman would be afraid of the test. But a falsely accusing man would fear the penalties for bearing false witness if he knew he would be automatically guilty of such when the woman passed the test. So it was fair to everyone involved.

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The Urim and Thummim were two objects mentioned in Numbers 27:21 and 1 Samuel 28:6 of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were apparently devices (perhaps in the form of flat stones) that the high priest consulted to determine the will of God. They might have worked something like a pair of dice.[/FONT]

And the Bible declares that God worked through such means, specifically when it was necessary. That is still not magic. The thing in common is that magic and God are both supernatural.

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Elisha was on his way to Bethel. Some small boys came out of the city and made fun of him because of his lack of hair; they called him "baldy". In a violent display of the power of black magic, Elisha cursed the children in the name of God. Two bears, apparently prompted by God, came out of the forest and tore 42 of the boys to shreds. The implication is that the children were all murdered. See 2 Kings 2:23-24.[/FONT]

The power of God is not magic. You could list off every single supernatural thing that happened at the power of God in the entire Bible and just cry "Magic!" But the difference is that God is involved and not magic. Alsom Elisha did no incantation or ritual to perform this. He simply commanded it to happen and it did as a demonstration that he was the Spiritual representative of the God of Israel during a time when the rest of the nation's leadership was in sin and was worshiping the neighboring countries' deities. Elisha and Elijah are famous for directly confronting the powers of other gods versus the power of Yahweh, Israel's God.

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Lots -- pieces of wood or stone with markings -- were used to determine the will of God. They were similar to dice. See: Numbers 26:55; Proverbs 16:33 Proverbs 18:18. [/FONT]

It is the same as coin flipping. Not magical.

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Daniel, the prophet, was employed for many years in Babylon as the chief occultist to the king. He was supervisor "of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers". See Daniel 5:11.[/FONT]

And when the Republicans are the majority, the Speaker of the House is the leader of a lot of pro-abortionists and liberals who are diametrically opposed to him or her in many issues. A politically appointed position over someone does not imply agreement about anything. And the character of Daniel is demonstrated by the character of Daniel in the book of Daniel as an outstanding man of faith, prayer and an iron unwillingness to give respect to any god but God. He would never have participated in magic. In fact, those same magicians had conspired to destroy Daniel just because he refused to worship any god but his own God.

 

[herushura]

Is there something wrong with using the name of a star in as the name of a character?

"Venus" is our name for the planet; does that mean we cannot use the name in conjunction with the goddess who originally bore that name?

the Ancient usally Personified Stars as a Living Charactor, not the other way round.
The Ancient called Venus the planet, the morning star, they didnt name the goddess Venus as the morning star. Venus the Goddess is the Rising Sun and this personifes Love, and the god Mars is the Settting Sun that personifies War.

Dont Get the planets and the gods that are named after them mixed up.

 

[Riverwolf]

the Ancient usally Personified Stars as a Living Charactor, not the other way round.
The Ancient called Venus the planet, the morning star, they didnt name the goddess Venus as the morning star. Venus the Goddess is the Rising Sun and this personifes Love, and the god Mars is the Settting Sun that personifies War.

Dont Get the planets and the gods that are named after them mixed up.

That's nothing I ever heard.

Here's what I heard:

Aphrodite is the goddess of physical love.
Seeing the beauty of the morning star, the Greeks named it after their beautiful goddess.

Helios is the Sun, and Apollo, god of light, drives the chariot that carries it. Ares is simply the god of war; I've never heard his name in conjunction with the setting sun.

Now, I don't know how much different Roman mythology is from Greek. I just know that the Romans adopted most of the Greek gods and changed their names(except Apollo whose name remained the same) and some of their attributes.

 

[herushura]

That's nothing I ever heard.
Helios is the Sun, and Apollo, god of light, drives the chariot that carries it. Ares is simply the god of war; I've never heard his name in conjunction with the setting sun.

The Greek God, Helios was adopted from the Pheonican Sun god Elion, the greek language would changes the last letter to S, thus Elion became "Elios" or Helios.
Most the greek pantheon like uranos/gaia/chronos/zeus were all adopted from the
pheonicians. Elion also appeared in Genesis, and translates as Most high because the sun is the most high. Elion also appeared in the babylonian pantheon as a creator of man. "Allah-Elyon-helios-elohim-ellil-Enlil-elah" are all devired from the same word, they are god that are always associated with Heaven, the opposite of these gods are Earth gods like "Dagan/Siton/satan/Posiedon/saturn/Enki" also the twin of EL.

 

[Imagist]

I am just curious as to where this Lucifer story comes from?
If there is a link to read it that would be appreciated.
I'll stay outta this one since I do not see Lucifer in that Light.

The story of Lucifer comes from the books of Enoch.

 

[Riverwolf]

The Greek God, Helios was adopted from the Pheonican Sun god Elion, the greek language would changes the last letter to S, thus Elion became "Elios" or Helios.
Most the greek pantheon like uranos/gaia/chronos/zeus were all adopted from the
pheonicians. Elion also appeared in Genesis, and translates as Most high because the sun is the most high. Elion also appeared in the babylonian pantheon as a creator of man. "Allah-Elyon-helios-elohim-ellil-Enlil-elah" are all devired from the same word, they are god that are always associated with Heaven, the opposite of these gods are Earth gods like "Dagan/Siton/satan/Posiedon/saturn/Enki" also the twin of EL.

But Zeus is the king of the gods, and Hades is the closest the Greek pantheon comes to Satan.

Poseidon is god of the sea, not the Enemy. I think whatever similarities between the "seidon" part of Poseidon's name and the words that became Satan are coincidental... and Saturn is the Roman name for Chronos.

The Greeks likely did borrow names and gods from here and there, but it also seems they created more of their own than from others.

 

[Riverwolf]

The story of Lucifer comes from the books of Enoch.

That wasn't "Lucifer". That was Azazel. Different angel.

 

[herushura]

But Zeus is the king of the gods, and Hades is the closest the Greek pantheon comes to Satan.

Poseidon is god of the sea, not the Enemy. I think whatever similarities between the "seidon" part of Poseidon's name and the words that became Satan are coincidental... and Saturn is the Roman name for Chronos.

The Greeks likely did borrow names and gods from here and there, but it also seems they created more of their own than from others.

Siton, is a pheonician god, thats the same as Dagan, they are gods of Corn and Fish, if you look at an image of satan he holds a Tridant, Tridant are a symbol for Fish. Dagan is the god of Fish/corn and he holds a tridant. Enki a much older god equated with siton also holds a tridant.