For those who believe that only Christians go to heaven...

[HoldemDB9]

Besides, I would think that if God is as the Christians say, then he would be able to distinguish between someone who was just using Jesus so that they could sin, with someone who was legitamately seeking salvation from a perceived sinful nature.

Of course God would be able to distinguish the two, but it doesn't matter. Christians say that if you truly believe in Jesus and truly repent then you will be forgiven of your sins, that would include sinning with the plan of asking for forgiveness later. As long as - in the end - you are truly sorry, then you will be forgiven.

 

[Storm]

Good works don't save you, but good works is what you gets you saved? That makes no sense.

Of course it doesn't make sense, that's not what he said. To rephrase, salvation does not stem from good works; good works stem from salvation.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Of course it doesn't make sense, that's not what he said. To rephrase, salvation does not stem from good works; good works stem from salvation.

Oh I see. But this is still saying that - to God - being good means nothing, and that was the point that I made in the first place. Since he said "in Christianity defence", I thought he was going against this point.

Being good means nothing to God (in Christianity). < This is what I was saying is insane and disguising to teach children.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Of course it doesn't make sense, that's not what he said. To rephrase, salvation does not stem from good works; good works stem from salvation.

So, if you see a professed christian who isn't performing good works, you know they aren't actually saved?

 

[McBell]

So, if you see a professed christian who isn't performing good works, you know they aren't actually saved?

I do not know how Storm feels about it, though I could guess, but it seems to me that there are plenty of Christians who believe in the "once saved, Always saved" concept.

 

[Falvlun]

Good works don't save you, but good works is what you gets you saved? That makes no sense.

That's not what I said. I said:

Basically, good works don't save you, but good works will (or should be) the result of your salvation.

According to Christian thought, the "proof" that you have been saved-- that you were sincere-- is in your actions. Your works aren't going to save you, but they will, or should, give testimony to your salvation. The theory goes that someone who serially sins, intentionally, with the idea that God will forgive him, has not truly accepted Jesus "into his heart".

You can be bad and if you truly believe in Jesus ans repent, then you will be forgiven. You can be good, but for God it is never enough (not even if you saved 1000 innocent people) so you will not be forgiven if you don't choose the right God.

Right.

Which is why I am no longer a Christian.

Good works is not what God rewards people for, he rewards them for believing in Christ.

Well, technically, he rewards them for accepting the sacrifice Christ made for them, but yeah.

 

[HoldemDB9]

That's not what I said. I said:


According to Christian thought, the "proof" that you have been saved-- that you were sincere-- is in your actions. Your works aren't going to save you, but they will, or should, give testimony to your salvation. The theory goes that someone who serially sins, intentionally, with the idea that God will forgive him, has not truly accepted Jesus "into his heart".

So basically anyone who sins after they have become Christian, even once, is not a true Christian? I don't think even Christian will agree. So if the pope tells one lie before he dies, he was never a Christian and therefore will go to hell?

Remember that there is no difference between these two sins: sinning with the intention of asking for forgiveness and telling one little lie. They are both "sins", they are both equal. Just like there is no difference between killing one person and killing 1 million.

So if Christians agree that God would forgive the pope in my example, then they must also believe that someone who sinned all their life, with the intention of asking for forgiveness on the day they die, will be sent to heaven - as long as they are being sincere.

 

[Falvlun]

Oh I see. But this is still saying that - to God - being good means nothing, and that was the point that I made in the first place. Since he said "in Christianity defence", I thought he was going against this point.

To clarify, I was specifically defending against this statement:

You can sin all you want as long as you ask Jesus for forgiveness

I don't think that's what Christianity teaches. It doesn't give you a "go out and sin with impunity" card.

Being good means nothing to God (in Christianity). < This is what I was saying is insane and disguising to teach children.

Actually, the Christian God is rather hung-up on being good. He can't allow anything with the slightest spot of sin near him... which is why he sacrificed himself so that he could satisfy himself with cleansing the sin. (It does seem a little like an OCD person washing his hands 11 times, doesn't it?)

 

[Falvlun]

So basically anyone who sins after they have become Christian, even once, is not a true Christian? I don't think even Christian will agree. So if the pope tells one lie before he dies, he was never a Christian and therefore will go to hell.

There is a difference between sinning in the course of one's life, and going out and intentionally sinning.

Besides, what is involved in asking for forgiveness? I would say a genuine feeling of contritement is necessary... and remember, God can tell who's faking it. If you are asking for forgiveness, but you are thinking inside your head about the next time you will go out and do that thing, then I don't think that really qualifies as asking for forgiveness.

EDIT:
Also, I did not mean to give the impression that if a Christian sinned that meant s/he wasn't a Christian. Christians sin as well as the rest of us. I would think the desire to do better, and over-arching evidence of trying to be good is all that is needed to show the "fruits" of a Christian.

 

[HoldemDB9]

I don't think that's what Christianity teaches. It doesn't give you a "go out and sin with impunity" card.

Of course its not going to teach this, it would be embarrassing to teach it specifically. But this is what Christianity is saying.

Actually, the Christian God is rather hung-up on being good. He can't allow anything with the slightest spot of sin near him... which is why he sacrificed himself so that he could satisfy himself with cleansing the sin. (It does seem a little like an OCD person washing his hands 11 times, doesn't it?)

And since you can be forgiven for any sin/any amount of sin by simply believing in Christ, the point still remains that being good means absolutely nothing to God. A person who is a million times more "good" than a Christian, will be sent to hell and the Christian will be sent to heaven. Being good means nothing to God in Christianity, there is no way around it. I just think its insane to teach this to children.

There is a difference between sinning in the course of one's life, and going out and intentionally sinning.

There isn't. Going out with the intention of sinning is sinning in the course of ones life. Otherwise every sin would be unintentional.

Besides, what is involved in asking for forgiveness? I would say a genuine feeling of contritement is necessary... and remember, God can tell who's faking it. If you are asking for forgiveness, but you are thinking inside your head about the next time you will go out and do that thing, then I don't think that really qualifies as asking for forgiveness.

Of course, I agree. I'm talking about going out and intentionally sinning and then asking forgiveness (and really meaning it). I know that nobody could fool God.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Also, I did not mean to give the impression that if a Christian sinned that meant s/he wasn't a Christian. Christians sin as well as the rest of us. I would think the desire to do better, and over-arching evidence of trying to be good is all that is needed to show the "fruits" of a Christian.

Therefore not sinning does not prove that people are Christian. A Christian could sin with the intention of asking for forgiveness and as long as they are honestly sorry, they will be forgiven.

 

[Falvlun]

Of course its not going to teach this, it would be embarrassing to teach it specifically. But this is what Christianity is saying.

I really didn't want to have to dig up verses...

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Note the bolded portion!

And since you can be forgiven for any sin/any amount of sin by simply believing in Christ, the point still remains that being good means absolutely nothing to God. A person who is a million times more "good" than a Christian, will be sent to hell and the Christian will be sent to heaven. Being good means nothing to God in Christianity, there is no way around it. I just think its insane to teach this to children.

I agree with your basic position that Christianity is fundamentally unfair: the mere act of guessing correctly should not be enough to save someone; and likewise, the mere act of guessing incorrectly should not be enough to condemn someone.

I do, however, think you are going too far in saying that Christianity doesn't value goodness. There are plenty of verses in the Bible about the need to be good, and to perform good works, as evidence of your relationship with God.

26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.

There isn't. Going out with the intention of sinning is sinning in the course of ones life. Otherwise every sin would be unintentional.

There is a difference between intentionally and unintentionally doing something wrong, Holdem. I think it dishonest of you to ignore that distinction.

Think of the difference between pre-meditated murder and un-meditated murder.

Futhermore, I would say there is a difference between sinning intentionally because you know you can just ask for forgiveness afterwards, and sinning intentionally because you got caught up in the moment, and then feel legitamately contrite about it afterwards.

I am assuming an omnipotent, omniscient being would know the exact reasons for which you became a Christian and if your goal was to simply have a "get out of jail free" card dispenser, then I doubt God would consider that a "true" conversion.

It doesn't work for the same reason Pascal's Wager doesn't work. The conversion must be sincere, and the desire for God's love and forgiveness and approval must be real.

Of course, I agree. I'm talking about going out and intentionally sinning and then asking forgiveness (and really meaning it). I know that nobody could fool God.

I agree that someone could sincerely ask for forgiveness after intentionally sinning. It's the repeat offender (who sins all the time simply because he thinks he can get away with it scott free) that I am objecting to.

Therefore not sinning does not prove that people are Christian. A Christian could sin with the intention of asking for forgiveness and as long as they are honestly sorry, they will be forgiven.

Again, I feel you are being intellectually dishonest. If Suzy, a normally hardworking straight A student, decides to blow off studying for her chem exam one night, does that make her any less of a hardworking student? You have to take everything in context. If someone is making genuine efforts at being a good person, but still slips up every now and then, I don't think that reflects upon their Christianity, but upon their humanity.

As I said before, it's the people who flagrantly abuse the system that show themselves to not be "true believers".

 

[HoldemDB9]

Note the bolded portion!

Well no Christian has ever showed me that verse before. Still there is a problem. This basically says that there is no sacrifice for a Christians deliberate sins. So if a Christians tells a lie deliberately (Id imagine everyone Christian has) then are you saying they cannot be forgiven?

I do, however, think you are going too far in saying that Christianity doesn't value goodness. There are plenty of verses in the Bible about the need to be good, and to perform good works, as evidence of your relationship with God.

Its not about Christianity not valuing goodness, its just that goodness means nothing to God. A Christian could be as bad as they wanted to be and as long as they truly repented, they would be forgiven.

There is a difference between intentionally and unintentionally doing something wrong, Holdem. I think it dishonest of you to ignore that distinction.

Think of the difference between pre-meditated murder and un-meditated murder.

Futhermore, I would say there is a difference between sinning intentionally because you know you can just ask for forgiveness afterwards, and sinning intentionally because you got caught up in the moment, and then feel legitamately contrite about it afterwards.

I know there is a difference, but it does not matter because God forgives both. Are you telling me that if the Pope intentionally tells a lie, then he will go to hell because that sin (because it was intentional) cannot be forgiven?

I am assuming an omnipotent, omniscient being would know the exact reasons for which you became a Christian and if your goal was to simply have a "get out of jail free" card dispenser, then I doubt God would consider that a "true" conversion.

It doesn't work for the same reason Pascal's Wager doesn't work. The conversion must be sincere, and the desire for God's love and forgiveness and approval must be real.

Like I've said, this is all assuming that the conversion is sincere and real. A Christian could go and kill 100 innocent people, because he knows that if he truly repents, God will forgive him.

I agree that someone could sincerely ask for forgiveness after intentionally sinning. It's the repeat offender (who sins all the time simply because he thinks he can get away with it scott free) that I am objecting to.

Repeat offender?! This is Christianity - sinning once is the same as sinning 1,000 times.

Again, I feel you are being intellectually dishonest. If Suzy, a normally hardworking straight A student, decides to blow off studying for her chem exam one night, does that make her any less of a hardworking student? You have to take everything in context. If someone is making genuine efforts at being a good person, but still slips up every now and then, I don't think that reflects upon their Christianity, but upon their humanity.

As I said before, it's the people who flagrantly abuse the system that show themselves to not be "true believers".

Like I've said above, you could abuse the system, because if you truly repent, you will be forgiven for abusing the system.

 

[Falvlun]

Holdem, It appears you are holding tightly to this interpretation of Christianity, and nothing I say will shake it. I think it disingenuous to say that Christianity doesn't value good works; obviously you feel differently.

I think your base position is strong and sound enough, without the need to make Christians into gluttonous sinners who have their whipping boy around whenever they need him.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Holdem, It appears you are holding tightly to this interpretation of Christianity, and nothing I say will shake it.

Interpretation? All I am saying is that a Christian could sin all they want because if they are eventually truly sorry, God will forgive them. Even many Christians would agree with this. I'm not saying Christians do this, I'm just saying that they could. Nothing you have said so far has shook this "interpretation".

I think it disingenuous to say that Christianity doesn't value good works; obviously you feel differently.

What exactley do you mean by Christianity does not value good works? Of course, Christians themselves value good works, they're human. But the Christian God, the most important thing to do with Christianity, does not value good works. I'm not being dishonest or anything like that. Go and ask most Christians and they will tell you, God does not value good works.

I think your base position is strong and sound enough, without the need to make Christians into gluttonous sinners who have their whipping boy around whenever they need him.

You may have misunderstood me. I'm not at all saying that Christians do this, I'm just making a point that they could. It is true that a Christian could sin all they want, because if they are truly sorry, God will forgive them. All I was asking is, why don't Christians sin when they want to? They are going to be forgiven, so why don't they sin?

 

[challupa]

You may have misunderstood me. I'm not at all saying that Christians do this, I'm just making a point that they could. It is true that a Christian could sin all they want, because if they are truly sorry, God will forgive them. All I was asking is, why don't Christians sin when they want to? They are going to be forgiven, so why don't they sin?

Maybe because at some level they realize that living in a peaceful harmonious way is more important for humanity to get along and survive. I also don't see anything wrong with a god that is not going to send people to hell for making mistakes even if they might have been deliberate. I obviously am not a Christian because my beliefs about a higher power is very different.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Maybe because at some level they realize that living in a peaceful harmonious way is more important for humanity to get along and survive.

Which would have nothing to do with Christianity.

I also don't see anything wrong with a god that is not going to send people to hell for making mistakes even if they might have been deliberate. I obviously am not a Christian because my beliefs about a higher power is very different.

I didn't say I thought there was anything wrong with such a God. My point was that since Christianity portrays God to be like this, why do Christians worry about sinning? After all, they are going to be forgiven - its like they never even sinned in the first place.

 

[challupa]

Which would have nothing to do with Christianity.
I should have been more precise. I meant that maybe they do understand at an "unconscious" level that their very survival depends on getting along. Maybe at some unconscious level they realize it's not really about sinning and more about survival so they don't sin (gosh I hate that stupid word) because they have something to lose in real life, real time.


I didn't say I thought there was anything wrong with such a God. My point was that since Christianity portrays God to be like this, why do Christians worry about sinning? After all, they are going to be forgiven - its like they never even sinned in the first place.

You're right, you didn't say that kind of a God was bad. I didn't mean to say you did, just pointing out my thought about it more.

The other thought on not sinning might be that they are not altogether sure they will be forgiven if they sin, even though that has been taught. I know when I was growing up and being raised a Christian, there was definitely no guarantee you would get into heaven just by asking for forgiveness.

 

[Muffled]

Oh, how grateful I am for the God I believe in. I can't imagine worshipping yours.

There is only one God. If you have another he is not God.

I think what you mean is that your understanding of God and Heaven are very limited in comparison to mine but you prefer your limited understanding because it salves your ego.

However for the sake of argument, Perhaps you can say how a Pagan could get to Heaven if that is what you are referring to.

 

[Muffled]

It's sad that some people actually prefer to believe that their god is so egotistical as to banish from his sight anyone who didn't bow unto him and him alone regardless of how good a person they were in life.

Katzpur's idea of Heaven and my idea of what waits for us in the afterlife may differ, but at least I think we agree on one thing...I fully believe that she and I will both "go" to the same "existence". Whatever that might turn out to be, I just don't believe it to be an exclusive little club.

I do not believe that God is egotistical. I believe that He is loving and has done everything in His power to get people to go to Heaven.

Everyone is in God's sight all the time no matter where they are because He is omnipresent. No one else is worthy of worship. I can understand His POV. He created everything to be perfect but others have marred that perfection. I can understand why He would be at odds with those who think a broken world is more worthy than a perfect world.

Going to wherever is not the same thing as going to Heaven.

It is not God who is exclusive but people who refuse to hear God who have excluded themselves. God has freely told us how to get to Heaven. Then there are those who have heard God but just don't want to go to Heaven.