Perhaps you don't recognize the irony of this statement??
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For those who believe that only Christians go to heaven...
- Thread starter HoldemDB9
- Start date
Draka
Wonder Woman
If your version of god that you choose to believe in demands that people worship him in a precise way or he will not allow them into his little country club...then I have bad news for you...he's egotistical.
So, essentially, your god is like a conceited chef. Made a meal he expects everyone to love and can't handle it that some people simply don't care for it and are happy with another cook's meal. Now he stomps his feet and throws a tantrum and demands that those people aren't ever allowed back in the restaurant again.
Might be true. Because the afterlife I know of is much better than the description of "heaven".
Really? Sounds like people who are loving and generous and accepting of others seem to want to act that way towards others regardless of a god that wants them to be as petty and exclusive as he is.
I totally understand Katzpur's statement about being grateful for the god she worships and not imagining worshipping yours. I quite agree. I prefer not worshipping a petty, jealous, vindictive, and temper-tantrum throwing abusive parent. But hey, I guess that's just us.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I actually do think that you and I believe in the same God. My comment was made in a moment of utter frustratation. We clearly understand Him quite differently, though.
How on earth could you have come to that conclusion based on what I said is beyond me. Actually, I believe you're wrong on both counts. If anyone's understanding of God and Heaven are limited, it's yours, not mine. Your understanding of God and Heaven is limited to the Bible. My understanding of God and Heaven is expanded to include not only an account of God's dealings with His children in the Eastern Hemisphere, but an account of His dealings with his "other sheep" in the Western Hemisphere. It is further enhanced by the words of living prophets, personally chosen by God, through whom he continues to communicate in order that the purety of His word will be maintained and not corrupted by the philosophies of men. Granted, both of us have the Holy Ghost to confirm to us what is true and what is false. Unfortunately, we don't seem to be getting the same message from Him. With respect to my "ego," it doesn't need to be saved. I'm not the one who is insisting that only a relative few -- including you, but not including Draka, for instance -- will be granted the blessing of living in Heaven forever. From where I'm sitting, it looks like you're the one with the fragile ego.
During the three day period following His death, Jesus Christ (in spirit form) visited the spirits of the wicked who were consigned to "Prison" after their deaths. They had died without the opportunity to hear His gospel and to understand how He had atoned for their sins. He taught them His gospel. While not all accepted it, some did, and were consequently released from the state of anguish they were in prior to receiving the knowledge of His love and grace. There are people in the Spirit Prison today, people who might have very well lived their lives quite differently had they had the same knowledge you have. Paradise, too, continues to exist today. The spirits of the righteous are there. One such spirit belongs to a repentant thief who hung next to Jesus on the cross. Jesus recognized that this man had a good heart, regardless of the fact that, like everyone else who has ever lived, he had made mistakes during his life. Many of the spirits of those who are now in Paradise awaiting the resurrection and final judgment are good people (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and yes -- even pagans and atheists
). For one reason or another, they did not accept Jesus Christ during their lives. For some, this may have been due to pride and stubbornness. They will probably not change their minds while they still have a chance. Others, though, were not Christians for a wide variety of reasons, many of which we don't fully understand, and others of which shoud be blatantly obvious to anyone with more than a half a dozen brain cells. There are no two ways to cut it: A child living in the slums of Calcutta, a child growing up in a remote Kenyan village or a child raised among Muslim terrorists in Iraq DOES NOT have the same opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as a child in the U.S. Furthermore, even people in a predominantly Christian nation have such varying backgrounds that it's impossible for you or me to fully understand their spiritual choices. In the Spirit World, the playing field will be leveled, and those who are really searching for the truth WILL FIND IT!
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HoldemDB9
Active Member
And who are "those"? I hope you are not referring to every non-Christian on the planet. I've heard of Christianity and if heaven exists, I want to go there. It's just that I don't believe it exists.
I agree with you... mostly.
Here is the my one exception to what you are saying:
It's the idea that someone could go out and sin, purposefully and with the distinct idea that he can do so, because God will forgive him if he just asks. I just don't think that this jives with what Christianity allows you to do, because it would indicate that you have actually not "accepted Jesus into your heart" and are "trampling upon Jesus".
Mostly, I just don't think you can sincerely ask for forgiveness if this is what you are doing; and I think sincerity is a necessary component of forgiveness-asking.
Is this any more clear?
Hmm. I'm going to start a new thread in General Religious Debates about this, 'cause now I'm curious.
I do think good works is valued in Christianity the religion, but you make an interesting distinction about the Christian God.
Because it would make Jesus sad? Because it just seems disrespectful? Because it would indicate that a change of heart has not happened? I'm sure the list could go on, but the specific answer that you want-- "they don't sin because it would effect their salvation"-- is the one I can't honestly give.
HoldemDB9
Active Member
Yes this makes things clearer. I know that it would be really hard to be truly sorry if it was all part of the plan in the first place. But my point is if they were truly sorry, they would be forgiven.I agree with you... mostly.
Here is the my one exception to what you are saying:
It's the idea that someone could go out and sin, purposefully and with the distinct idea that he can do so, because God will forgive him if he just asks. I just don't think that this jives with what Christianity allows you to do, because it would indicate that you have actually not "accepted Jesus into your heart" and are "trampling upon Jesus".
Mostly, I just don't think you can sincerely ask for forgiveness if this is what you are doing; and I think sincerity is a necessary component of forgiveness-asking.
Is this any more clear?
From what I've seen its like this: there is heaven and there is hell. Christians go to heaven and non-Christians got to hell, regardless of how "good" they've been. We are all sinners, sinning once is the same as sinning a thousand times. Its simple, believe in Jesus and you are forgiven, don't and you are not. There is not even any room for God to value good works. Christian = heaven, not Christian = hell, no in-between.
Your right, maybe they do have reasons not to sin. But like you also said, its not going to effect their salvation. I just find that wrong. They might not want to, but the point I'm making is that they could sin all they want.
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
Since God is ALL powerful (can do ANYthing) and is doing everything in his power to get people to go to heaven.....how is it possible that some won't make it there?
Let's say I'm standing there and God says that I have failed to accept him and I say "Oh...well, I'd rather go to that nice place anyway" and start walking toward the door. Who's going to stop me from going to Heaven?
Greetings Holdem. If you allow that eternal life or salvation is akin to going to heaven, would it be safe to say that most Americans and most Christians do not fall within the scope of your OP. That is, most Christians do not believe that only Christians go to heaven. Check out the following survey. http://religions.pewforum.org/reports#For those who believe that only Christians go to heaven...
Its obvious that not all get an equal chance to become a Christian. For example, a child born in India (where 80% of the population is Hindu) does not have the same chance of becoming Christian as a child born in the USA (where I think 70%+ are Christian?).
I don't know why, but for some reason many Christians seem to think that you will be held accountable for not following, once you have simply "heard" of the Bible. Hearing of the Bible does not make everything all equal.
Obviously this is not at all fair. So does God either let non-Christians into heaven or does he give some a MUCH better chance than others? I don't see any other way around it
(select 2)
"A major survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life finds that most Americans have a non-dogmatic approach to faith. A strong majority of those who are affiliated with a religion, including majorities of nearly every religious tradition, do not believe their religion is the only way to salvation.......Most Americans agree with the statement that many religions not just their own can lead to eternal life. Among those who are affiliated with a religious tradition, seven-in-ten say many religions can lead to eternal life."
HoldemDB9
Active Member
Greetings Holdem. If you allow that eternal life or salvation is akin to going to heaven, would it be safe to say that most Americans and most Christians do not fall within the scope of your OP. That is, most Christians do not believe that only Christians go to heaven. Check out the following survey. http://religions.pewforum.org/reports#
(select 2)
"A major survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life finds that most Americans have a non-dogmatic approach to faith. A strong majority of those who are affiliated with a religion, including majorities of nearly every religious tradition, do not believe their religion is the only way to salvation.......Most Americans agree with the statement that many religions not just their own can lead to eternal life. Among those who are affiliated with a religious tradition, seven-in-ten say many religions can lead to eternal life."
Yeah I done a little research myself and it does seem as if the majority are not so close minded, which is great news.
However this thread was intended for those who believe that only Christians go to heaven. Not so surprisingly, I have not got many answers from such people. Probably because they are worried about how ridiculous they will look.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Allow me to play Devils Advocate
(No this is not what I believe, it is what I was taught as a young Baptist)
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." (John 14:6)
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23)
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5:12)
"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:5)
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9)
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)
So, what I was taught as a young Baptist Christian, according to the scripture quoted above, was that no one has access to God or Heaven except through Jesus Christ. A missionaries sole purpose in life is to tell others so that they may accept Christ, to save them from hell.
If one is to accept the Bible as infallible, then one must also accept that God will damn those who never hear of Him.
:no:
But as I said, I no longer believe this rubbish.
(No this is not what I believe, it is what I was taught as a young Baptist)
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." (John 14:6)
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23)
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5:12)
"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:5)
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9)
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)
So, what I was taught as a young Baptist Christian, according to the scripture quoted above, was that no one has access to God or Heaven except through Jesus Christ. A missionaries sole purpose in life is to tell others so that they may accept Christ, to save them from hell.
If one is to accept the Bible as infallible, then one must also accept that God will damn those who never hear of Him.
:no:
But as I said, I no longer believe this rubbish.
Oh I'm pretty sure an elite club like that must have bouncers!!
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
Right! Often Christians will say that God does not keep people out of heaven, but rather people keep themselves out. But when we get to the pearly gates, and it's obvious that there's two pretty different eternal destinations in front of us, it's my understanding that God (the infinitely brawny bouncer) will throw people into hell even if they protest and would rather go to heaven.
It's like the guy who beats his wife because she just won't listen. Is it correct to say that SHE chooses the beating? That if she would only listen she would not be punished so those black eyes are HER fault?
Draka
Wonder Woman
OMG! That sounds so spot on!
"I love you honey, just do what I say and I will always love you. Disobey me and...I'll beat you to kingdom come, but you have a choice and it's your fault if you choose to disobey me. Your beating is all your own fault. Just remember...I love you and it's for your own good."
YouTube - George Carlin - Religion is bull****. The first minute and half or so says it all.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Preach on brother! I jus' hate it when dumb broads make you hit 'em. It's not like I want to, but they jus' keeps askin' fer it. I tells 'em - don't make me angry, but they does it anyway.
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
So hand a bruthah a couple frubals will ya?
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
What do you say to a woman with two black eyes?
Nuthin'! You already told her twice.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I don't believe it's infallible, but the traditional Christian response to the dilemma of what happens to those who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ is the most compelling reason for me to accept the LDS Church's doctrine instead. It is not only much more logical (given the fact that God is supposed to be loving and merciful), but does not contradict anything the Bible has to say on the subject.
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
Except perhaps the part where followers are charged to go forth and spread the message of salvation to the four corners of the earth. Seems like a waste of time if they're going to get a much better sales pitch later. Plus it's got to be hard to find those corners....
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
It's not a waste of time to 900 or so people per day. Have you ever heard the story about the man who walked up and down the beach throwing starfish back in the ocean?