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For those who believe that only Christians go to heaven...

JTFC

Member
Like my title says, getting to Heaven is not a game of chance in which only some people or only christians go to it. Everyone that leads a good and righteous life will be warmly and gracefully welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven. You can be of any religion and still obtain your just rewards, but only if you are righteous.

Even Pope John Paul II believed that everyone has the opportunity to get to Heaven, and not just Christians, not just Jewish people, not just Muslims, and not just Hindus, or anyone else that doesn't fall into the above religions. The point is that anyone can get to heaven if they work for it. :)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The point is that anyone can get to heaven if they work for it. :)
You realize, I suppose, that all of those Christians who believe that we are saved by faith alone are going to be all over you for this statement. I agree with you completely, but then I'm always being accused to believing that Christ's grace is insufficient to save and that I believe we can earn our way into Heaven. I know that's not what you're saying. Just be prepared for the bashlash, if you're not already.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
... I'm always being accused to believing that Christ's grace is insufficient to save...
I do not understand why.
I mean, just read the Bible.
The Bible clearly states that one has to choose to follow Jesus.
This being the case, then Christ's grace alone will not get you into heaven.


*sighs*
Sadly, there are far to many idiots in the world....
 

mohammed_beiruti

Active Member
Ah so we are talking about a fickle God who does what he wants, regardless of the actions of men.

Qura'an
Ch.4
[40] Allah is never unjust in the least degree: if there is any good (done) He doubleth it, and giveth from His own presence a great reward.

besides, you shall not worry about judjment day, because Allah will never deal unjustly with us.

Ch.21
[47] We shall set up scales of justice for the Day of Judgment, so that not a soul will be dealt with unjustly in the least. And if there be (no more than) the weight of a mustard seed, We will bring it (to account): and enough are We to take account.

Qura'an assures many times that Allah will never deal unjustly with people, however people sometimes deal unjustly with themselves.

Ch.18
[48] And they will be marshalled before thy Lord in ranks, (with the announcement), "Now have ye come to Us (bare) as We created you first: aye, ye thought We shall not fulfil the appointment made to you to meet (Us)!"

[49] And the Book (of Deeds) will be placed (before you); and thou wilt see the sinful in great terror because of what is (recorded) therein; they will say, "Ah! woe to us! what a Book is this! it leaves out nothing small or great, but takes account thereof!" they will find all that they did, placed before them: and not one will thy Lord treat with injustice.



 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Qura'an
Ch.4
[40] Allah is never unjust in the least degree: if there is any good (done) He doubleth it, and giveth from His own presence a great reward.

besides, you shall not worry about judjment day, because Allah will never deal unjustly with us.

Ch.21
[47] We shall set up scales of justice for the Day of Judgment, so that not a soul will be dealt with unjustly in the least. And if there be (no more than) the weight of a mustard seed, We will bring it (to account): and enough are We to take account.

Qura'an assures many times that Allah will never deal unjustly with people, however people sometimes deal unjustly with themselves.

Ch.18
[48] And they will be marshalled before thy Lord in ranks, (with the announcement), "Now have ye come to Us (bare) as We created you first: aye, ye thought We shall not fulfil the appointment made to you to meet (Us)!"

[49] And the Book (of Deeds) will be placed (before you); and thou wilt see the sinful in great terror because of what is (recorded) therein; they will say, "Ah! woe to us! what a Book is this! it leaves out nothing small or great, but takes account thereof!" they will find all that they did, placed before them: and not one will thy Lord treat with injustice.

If a person had to wait until judgement day togo to Heaven it would be a long wait.

Sura 4:124 If any do deeds of righteousness,– be they male or female–and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.

Since no-one is righteous, no-one can enter into Heaven. (Except Christians who are made righteous) Then there is the question of faith. Who has it?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I do not understand why.
I mean, just read the Bible.
The Bible clearly states that one has to choose to follow Jesus.
This being the case, then Christ's grace alone will not get you into heaven.


*sighs*
Sadly, there are far to many idiots in the world....

I would certainly agree that works are insufficient to save but even salvation doesn't guranatee a person will go to Heaven.

No doubt a person chooses to receive God's grace but without the grace there would only be works and the concensus is that other than Elijah and Enoch everyone went into Sheol.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
[/color]What other messages are you referring to? Where, besides the Bible, do you look to find God's word? And maybe I'm reading you wrong, but I can assure you that none of my beliefs invalidate the Bible -- or attempt to.

There are many more who refuse to acknowledge His prophets and who have, in effect, told Him it's time for Him to shut up.


I agree. But how would you explain the fact that two equally sincere individuals, both looking for the truth, do not understand the scriptures the same way?


Well, I'm in no hurry to go there either. I do hope to some day, though. Don't you? Besides, you do have personal needs; all of us do. To perfectly honest, your statement strikes me as being extremely self-righteous.

Of course He wouldn't force anyone, but He would at least give them a chance!


I wasn't aware that you were dead. :D


It sounds as if you reject the concept of free will. If that's the case, we'll never see eye to eye on this. I believe obedience is our choice.


I agree that He will reveal Himself to those who seek Him earnestly. I'm just not naive enough to insist that it will be during their mortal lives. That's why I believe the gospel continues to be spread in the Spirit World.

I find God's word in the Qu'ran and in the writings of the Bahai faith. I find God's word in the Book of Mormon despite the fact that it is fiction. I find the word of God in Hymns and sermons and utterances by prophets. It appears the word of God may be in the Bhagavad Gita but I haven't read all of it yet.

I'm sure that happens all the time. I listen carefuly to prophets but I don't take their words verbatim. I have a personal relationship with Jesus and can find corroboration or not.

Sincerity is not equivalent to spiritual receptivity. Even people who think they are hearing the spirit of God sometimes aren't.

I was slathering at the mouth for the Kingdom of God to come on earth (Physically). It is the best of both worlds to have physcical life without having to endure evil. However now I have found out that God has a different plan for me.
Sometimes the evil is too much to bear and I need a rest from it and during times when the KOG isn't on earth Heaven provides the only rest available. Otherwise I consider physical life to be the best situation and the one that God created us for. Whatever my lot God is with me and it is well with my soul.

I believe in free will but I also believe that God can supercede it. Obedience could make a person righteous if they could do it perfectly. God makes us righteous by declaring that we are righteous. In the final analysis His judgement is the only one that counts.

Prayer can accomplish much. There are mysteries in it that I don't understand.
I pray backwards, ie I pray for an event that has already occurred to turn out right. It seems that God is not under the same time constraints as we. I could have prayed for my cousin's ghost if I had known at the time that I could. I am not sure if she has moved on. I will have to check with my brother who lives in her house. My guess is that most of the people you are praying for now have another life but that doesn't mean that prayer can't help them in it.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
Ah so we are talking about a fickle God who does what he wants, regardless of the actions of men.
God has no less allegiance to our good simply because He can do what He wants. God has a purpose for what He does and that is for our good. Does He punish? It is for our good. Does He show mercy? It is for our good. Does He reward? It is for our good. However rightiousness is not how a person gets to Heaven. The righteousness of a Christian does not preclude judgement that we need punishment for our sins. It only gives us an assurance that we are forgiven. This is not an easy concept so I wouldn't be surprised if you don't get it.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
God has no less allegiance to our good simply because He can do what He wants. God has a purpose for what He does and that is for our good. Does He punish? It is for our good. Does He show mercy? It is for our good. Does He reward? It is for our good. However rightiousness is not how a person gets to Heaven. The righteousness of a Christian does not preclude judgement that we need punishment for our sins. It only gives us an assurance that we are forgiven. This is not an easy concept so I wouldn't be surprised if you don't get it.

No, I do not "get it". I punish my children so that they will learn. But "eternal Hell" is not a punishment, it is a threat. After you are cast into hell, what is learned that can make you better?
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
No, I do not "get it". I punish my children so that they will learn. But "eternal Hell" is not a punishment, it is a threat. After you are cast into hell, what is learned that can make you better?

I don't think Christians see hell as rehabilitation. They see it as a deserved punishment. Deserved because you didn't choose the right religion.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
I don't think Christians see hell as rehabilitation. They see it as a deserved punishment. Deserved because you didn't choose the right religion.
Exactly, punishment is for learning or rehabilitation. Eternal suffering is not punishment, it is sadistic torture.
 

J Bryson

Well-Known Member
Exactly, punishment is for learning or rehabilitation. Eternal suffering is not punishment, it is sadistic torture.

Which, considering what an impact such beliefs have on our society, explains much of our legal system:

"On this principle we contend, that the infernal torments, which false religion has placed in the future world, and which ministers have, with an overflowing zeal, so constantly held up to the people, and urged with all their learning and eloquence, have tended so to harden the hearts of the professors of this religion, that they have exercised, toward their fellow creatures, a spirit of enmity, which but too well corresponds with the relentless cruelty of their doctrine, and the wrath which they have imagined to exist in our heavenly Father. By having such an example constantly before their eyes, they have become so transformed into its image, that, whenever they have had the power, they have actually executed a vengeance on men and women, which evinced that the cruelty of their doctrine had overcome the native kindness and compassion of the human heart."

-Hosea Ballouhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosea_Ballou#cite_note-1
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Like my title says, getting to Heaven is not a game of chance in which only some people or only christians go to it. Everyone that leads a good and righteous life will be warmly and gracefully welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven. You can be of any religion and still obtain your just rewards, but only if you are righteous.

Even Pope John Paul II believed that everyone has the opportunity to get to Heaven, and not just Christians, not just Jewish people, not just Muslims, and not just Hindus, or anyone else that doesn't fall into the above religions. The point is that anyone can get to heaven if they work for it. :)

One can not work to earn salvation or it would make the work of Christ at the cross empty and purposeless.
Works are a man centered gospel that says, if I'm good enough and work hard enough, I can achieve righteous status with God, this line of thought goes against everything Jesus and scripture teaches and makes men out to be self righteous and their own means to salvation.

...who gets the glory here,God or man ?????

If man could have done something that appeases God for their sins,then they would have,but Jesus came ,sent by God to pay the price that man could not pay.
Those who don't receive that legal transaction Christ satisified ,then they are still in sin and guilty before God

One is not righteous enough to attain heaven status by simply holding to a faith in God or by obeying certain rules and following certain traditions.
The religious leaders did in Jesus day and were condemned by Jesus.

One is declared righteous by God in receiving salvation found in Christ as Savior and his sacrifice for sin and then one is able to live a godly life that pleases the Lord.
Men do good works in accordance to scripture because they have the Holy Spirit within them, which is the fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5
You don't do good works to please God ,you do good works because the Holy Spirit resides in you, anything done without the spirit is self righteous acts
Isa 64:6But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away
Rom 3:23 — For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Psa 14:3The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 53:3Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.
Mat 15:19But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the manFor out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Exactly, punishment is for learning or rehabilitation. Eternal suffering is not punishment, it is sadistic torture.

It is certain God has used some form of discipline upon your life to instruct you to turn to him,that you would be justified of sin,but it will be our refusal to adhere to that form of justification which will ultimately leave us to suffer an eternal justice.

The human mind can't comprehend what justice is until they see the Holiness of God.
The human intellect and reasoning mind will always be the means in which men will justify themselves and excuse themselves from enerting into the salvation that comes by faith..alone, then good works.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
I don't think Christians see hell as rehabilitation. They see it as a deserved punishment. Deserved because you didn't choose the right religion.

Does it really matter what a Christian thinks, please refrain from making the Christian out to be the scape goat ,you only do yourself a disservice.

Christ set the plan of salvation,the consequences,your eternal suffering, and your way to avoid it....... your fate is in him.

So why don't you ever direct your accusations to him on this forum.

Let you and him hear through your own lips and by your own confession what you really think about him.

If you want to curse someone ,do it to him, he knows your heart anyways !!!
 

J Bryson

Well-Known Member
It is certain God has used some form of discipline upon your life to instruct you to turn to him,that you would be justified of sin,but it will be our refusal to adhere to that form of justification which will ultimately leave us to suffer an eternal justice.

The human mind can't comprehend what justice is until they see the Holiness of God.
The human intellect and reasoning mind will always be the means in which men will justify themselves and excuse themselves from enerting into the salvation that comes by faith..alone, then good works.

Fascinating how God's concept of justice is so similar to ancient Mideastern concepts of justice, and so dissimilar to any modern concept.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
It is certain God has used some form of discipline upon your life to instruct you to turn to him,that you would be justified of sin,but it will be our refusal to adhere to that form of justification which will ultimately leave us to suffer an eternal justice.

The human mind can't comprehend what justice is until they see the Holiness of God.
The human intellect and reasoning mind will always be the means in which men will justify themselves and excuse themselves from enerting into the salvation that comes by faith..alone, then good works.

What you call eternal justice, I call sadistic torture.
And how does holding a gun to my head, threatening eternal damnation, constitute love?
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
Does it really matter what a Christian thinks, please refrain from making the Christian out to be the scape goat ,you only do yourself a disservice.

Christ set the plan of salvation,the consequences,your eternal suffering, and your way to avoid it....... your fate is in him.

So why don't you ever direct your accusations to him on this forum.

Let you and him hear through your own lips and by your own confession what you really think about him.

If you want to curse someone ,do it to him, he knows your heart anyways !!!

roli what on earth are you talking about, who have I "accused"? I have not said anything about what I think of Christ.

Now why are you even replying to this thread? All you do is pop in, disagree, say what you believe without anything to back it up and then don't respond any more. That's all you do in a lot of threads. If you have nothing at all to back up your argument then why even reply to the thread?

You said that you believe that everyone on the planet has an equal chance to become a Christian. Now I would like to ask you, if everyone gets an equal chance, why is 80% of the Indian population Hindu, 95%+ of the Saudi Arabian population Muslim, and ~80% of the American population Christian? Are you saying that these numbers are just complete coincidences? Yes or no?
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
What you call eternal justice, I call sadistic torture.
And how does holding a gun to my head, threatening eternal damnation, constitute love?
Nobody is threatening you, it's God's promise,"the soul that sins will certainly perish"
He does say it quite often and gives ample opportunity to turn to God for mercy and forgiveness.
Your god however seems to offer neither, mercy or forgiveness,because the irony is, he's your own creation.
You make him to be everything you want him to be and that which you don't want him to be, which BTW is based on your own conditions, he's a convenient god of sorts.... is'nt he.You make him to be all good and no wrath or vegence or judgment, just a huggy and kissy,feel good kind of god,it's soothing just talking about it.
Don't feel bad, your not alone ,many have created a god that suits their own likes or dislikes, making him to be a very non confrontational, seeker sensitive,loving being
Kind of like a pocket god to suit your own personal likes and dislikes.

There's a commonly coined phrase among skeptics and unbelievers,it goes like this!
My god is a loving god and does'nt send people to hell ,my god would'nt say or do, this or that. my god is this or that.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
long-tailed_weasel.jpg

Weasel words, aren't they great?!
 
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